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Old 9th Jan 2013, 13:52   #61
Narj
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It took me a long time to make the jump, but I do like Steam now. If there has to be DRM, then Steam is probably the least intrusive that I've come across. The overlay is a godsend for games that don't like ALT+TAB to windows as well.

I did find an issue with the client before where a broken internet connection wouldn't let me play my games. I was raging quite hard until I found that unplugging the NIC meant I could play them again. I think they fixed that issue now.

I've avoided Origin partly because I dislike what EA have done to so many decent developers, and partly because I mistrust them. However, I've found that it can be run in a sandbox so will probably suffer it in that capacity so I can play ME3.

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Old 9th Jan 2013, 14:36   #62
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^As above, the only reason I allowed Origin on my PC was because of ME (and I'll probably buy ME4).

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Old 9th Jan 2013, 14:43   #63
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i've used steam for around 6-7 years now, never had any real problems with it and never found it being invasive of my privacy in any way. try not to worry about it and just play the games
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Old 9th Jan 2013, 15:11   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Angilion View Post
I'll nail my colours to the mast straight away - I dislike modern DRM. I'd even prefer crappy old DRM solutions such as Lenslok from the 1980s (yes, I'm old - my first computer was a ZX-81). The only place I've bought any games in years is gog.com, precisely because they don't have any DRM at all.

So I've completely avoided Steam, but that's becoming more and more restrictive. The potential tipping point is Fallout: New Vegas, which I really want to buy and is yet another Steam-only game.

Steam ticks the two major boxes of why I dislike modern DRM - it's spyware because it takes information from your computer and sends it to the publisher and it makes all game "purchases" game rentals because it leaves the publisher in control of when or if you are allowed to play the game you've paid for. Nobody would accept that crap if it wasn't imposed on them.

I've looked around online for details and all I've found is ~85% fans saying everything is fine regardless of anything because Gabe Newell and Steam are heroes beyond reproach, something like Father Christmas and Superman, ~10% opposition saying that it's utterly terrible under any circumstances and the remainder saying that this sort of DRM is unavoidable, Steam works well enough and Valve haven't got a history of being incompetent or malicious. It seems to be rather polarised and rather short of actual information.


So...does anyone know what information Steam spies from you? Not what is written in the typically vague EULA (I've read that), but what it actually takes and sends to Valve. As far as I can tell, nobody knows or cares apart from me - people either won't use it regardless of what it spies or they'll use it regardless of what it spies as an act of trust and faith in Gabe Newell and Valve. If it's just something like some hardware specs and how many hours I've spent playing a game, I don't really care...as long as somebody is checking that's all they take and that they haven't started taking more.

I wouldn't bother with Steam at all, but I'd really like to buy Fallout: New Vegas.
If you're using Windows it's entirely possible that Microsoft are stealing your personal datas right now!

If you're using Linux it's entirely possible that whoever compiled that distro is also stealing your datas right now! (Unless you happened to personally code the OS you're using, in which case kudos )

Your browser could be sending personal datas to Nigeria (or Nigella), and your firewall could even be doing the same, all the while pretending to be your friend and protect you from the data stealers.

While all of that is extremely unlikely, if you're going to be paranoid about privacy, you might as well do it properly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Angilion View Post
That's a point, assuming there is an unsteamed ( ) pirated version of it and I find it and how to download it. I've never pirated a PC game, but I'm sure it requires more than two tape recorders and a lead
The irony being that you're far more likely to get actual malware from finding/downloading/installing a pirated copy, completely negating the reason for doing so in the first place

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Old 9th Jan 2013, 15:44   #65
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As for Steam:

Safe, they ain't gonna **** you, and the rental agreement is only to stop people trading in digital copies (and for good reason), they aren't going to randomly cut your access to a game off. However that's a double edged sword! If you buy a game from them, and cannot get it working or if it runs appallingly on your hardware (i.e LotR War of the North cannot run on any AMD hardware, CPU or GPU, despite Steam not warning you) you'll never get a refund, and the customer support is lacking severely, although you can contact Gabe directly and he does fix your issues, but he wouldn't give a refund either.

As for the program, it's clunky and slow, and becomes unresponsive alot of the time, but Google something called Less Annoying Steam Experience Revised. It's a custom Skin and layout that fixes Valve's attrocious coding and makes the client extremely fast and responsive, whilst also giving it many desperately needed features for incredibly quick navigation.

As for OP:


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Old 9th Jan 2013, 15:50   #66
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Checking my Steam account details it says I first signed up for steam on 17.5.09 in order to play The Orange Box which I had bought on dvd. The first actual game I bought on steam was the XCOM pack for £2 on 30.1.10, thought it was earlier than that tbh. What was your first purchase on steam?
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Old 9th Jan 2013, 15:57   #67
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Mine was HL2 in 2004 as far as I can remember.



Slaying buffets to keep you safe. You are welcome citizen!
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Old 9th Jan 2013, 16:49   #68
Murray
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Football Manager 2011 on the 15th of December 2010.
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Old 9th Jan 2013, 16:54   #69
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Steam is pretty comparable to a console to be honest in terms of DRM. You don't really notice it as Steam becomes a great tool for storing and playing your games from. There's a reason people are willing to buy games they own physical copies of again on Steam because it's a great convenience.
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Old 9th Jan 2013, 16:57   #70
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Avoiding Steam for that reason is ridiculously petty. There really isn't anything wrong with it.

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Old 9th Jan 2013, 18:36   #71
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OP really needs to take off the tinfoil hat. Or better yet ask gabe to make him one for tf2.
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Old 9th Jan 2013, 18:58   #72
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Must be very restrictive worrying about this kinda stuff in terms of games available to you.
The op must be a pirate.


















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Old 9th Jan 2013, 23:51   #73
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Lifes too short to worry about gabe knowing my address
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Old 10th Jan 2013, 00:26   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Angilion View Post
Steam ticks the two major boxes of why I dislike modern DRM - it's spyware because it takes information from your computer and sends it to the publisher and it makes all game "purchases" game rentals because it leaves the publisher in control of when or if you are allowed to play the game you've paid for.
Ok, first thing is first... Steam does NOT, repeat NOT, take information from your PC unless you say it can do so. This is usually by responding to the hardware survey it might ask you to do. You do not have to complete or do the survey, and unless you do do the survey, Steam does not transmit your information. If information is sent to the publisher, it's the actual publisher PROGRAM, that does this, it is NOT Steam.

2ndly. *ALL* games have an EULA which states that you don't own the game, regardless of whether it's on a disc or downloaded. However with Steam once you've authorised the game you can quite happy run Steam in offline mode, and provided the game doesn't require net access you can play it until the Sun explodes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Angilion View Post
So...does anyone know what information Steam spies from you?
All the information it sends can be found here. http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey

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Old 10th Jan 2013, 00:27   #75
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Only thing I hate about steam is the bandwidth hogging speed of the downloads, there is no capping option. Cant do anything online unless i pause steam D/L. Apart from that never notice the DRM.
Install Netbalancer, it's free software that can limit the upload/download speed of individual applications. Helps me to download from Steam & use iPlayer etc. at the same time.
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Old 10th Jan 2013, 00:48   #76
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Using steam for 3 years, and it was the main reason why I got into building gaming rigs. Big future ahead for steam with the planned Steambox.
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Old 10th Jan 2013, 03:33   #77
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I've a question for the charming and insightful people babbling about tinfoil hats:

Where are my claims of conspiracies and cover-ups?

Where are my claims of wildly implausible things with no evidence to support them?

Where are my claims of things being true even though they're proven false by the available evidence?

If you're really seeing any of this in my posts, then you're not seeing my posts. Perhaps the Illuminati Alien Lizards are feeding you false posts instead?

If I had said that Valve was a front for the Illuminati/New World Order/<insert your conspiracy group of choice here> and that Steam read your mind or controlled it, or something silly like that, that would have been tinfoil hat territory. But I didn't.

Steam gathers data from your PC and sends it to Valve. This is not a secret. It is not a conspiracy. It is not covered up. I just asked what data it gathers.

You are behaving like the most knee-jerk theists, outraged at any perceived slight to your faith in Valve.
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Old 10th Jan 2013, 08:14   #78
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I've a question for the charming OP, why so defensive?

You asked a question and most people gave you the best answer they could give, it turned out to be the answer you had come to a conclusion about yourself prior to posting and such is the nature of internet forums you proceeded to get slightly trolled due to an increasingly defensive and may i say slightly rude attitude towards the responders, what exactly did you expect?

At this point you may aswell stop posting here because your just going to get trolled into the ground for been a bit of an arse.
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Old 10th Jan 2013, 08:15   #79
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You posted a thread asking about steam & the majority seem to think it's worth putting up with the bad (whatever you perceive it to be) for a great service, so either get it or don't but don't get shirty when some people take the mickey out of some of you're concerns which do seem a little over the top to be fair.
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Old 10th Jan 2013, 08:23   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Angilion View Post
Steam gathers data from your PC and sends it to Valve. This is not a secret. It is not a conspiracy. It is not covered up. I just asked what data it gathers.
Once again, Steam only collects PC spec data IF YOU WANT IT TO.. otherwise all it collects is game usage data (and it doesn't even do that in offline mode.)

And once again, the data it collects is here. http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey

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Old 10th Jan 2013, 08:26   #81
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Angilion, why not ring/e-mail Valve yourself wtih any concerns about their DRM ?

They would more than likely be transparant with you and give you an idea of what information is being collected, since its your right to know.

Or just try Steam cause YOLO <- yep i said it
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Old 10th Jan 2013, 09:17   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Angilion View Post
Where are my claims of wildly implausible things with no evidence to support them?
wait for it... ah, here it is.
Quote:
Steam gathers data from your PC and sends it to Valve. This is not a secret. It is not a conspiracy. It is not covered up. I just asked what data it gathers.
Steam does not gather data from ypur PC and send it to Valve. Except under one specific, rare situation which you receive clear notification, and have to opt-in to.

Every now and then, no more than ocne a year, you *might* get a pop up when you launch steam asking if you want to take part in the steam hardware server. If you say, no, that pop up closes and no data is collected. If you say yes, then some data about your system is collected, anonymised, and made part of the steam hardware survey.

You referred to steam as spyware. This is not at all how spyware operates.

The data collected by the hardware survey is here:
http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey

Now, during this survey, and only during this survey, steam does collect information on software on your system that it really has no need to know (like whether you have Microsoft Office installed or, more pertinently for some people, bittorent). This caused a minor controversy when it was introduced- it wasn't part of the survey for the first few years.
But you can easily opt-out, and most importantly, this is an actual survey - the data is anonymised, and steam has no way of looking particular users to the data collected.

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Old 10th Jan 2013, 09:36   #83
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You're wasting your time guys, this is very obviously a person who's only interested in how awesome his own opinion is.
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Old 10th Jan 2013, 09:42   #84
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Originally Posted by Angilion View Post
I've looked around online for details and all I've found is ~85% fans saying everything is fine regardless of anything because Gabe Newell and Steam are heroes beyond reproach, something like Father Christmas and Superman, ~10% opposition saying that it's utterly terrible under any circumstances and the remainder saying that this sort of DRM is unavoidable, Steam works well enough and Valve haven't got a history of being incompetent or malicious. It seems to be rather polarised and rather short of actual information.
It's not really polarised at all. There are very few people who have used steam who hate it. There are some forums where people who have never used it, and are paranoid about it, are basically regurgitating paranoid fears back from 2003-4. And there are people who just wont accept DRM on principle.

I do understand the dislike of DRM on principle. I dont like it either. Steam is the only DRM service which actually adds value, and on-balance, the trade-off is worth it. It gives a lot of features which you may not care about, but which add a lot of value to most users:

* autopatching. You never have to manually update a game again. For some games where, after installing, you have to hunt down patch 1.1, then 1.11. then 1.2, and install them each in order, what a hassle.

* Incredibly easy transferral of your entire steam catalog from one computer to another. (just copy the steam folder then double click steam.exe, and a couple of minutes later you're up and running). With steam you just forget about it and it's done.

* A central games launcher. If you have a lot of games installed, you dont have to have a couple of dozen or hundred shortcuts scattered across your desktop. Just open steam, and double click the game you want to run.

* steam sales, especially the summer and winter events. Really, any pc game user who has missed out on these doesn't know what he's been missing.

* most games on steam have dedicated forums in the steam community site. This is an excellent resource for if a game has problems, and for fixes.

* the cloud save feature of steamworks games allows you to pick up a game where you left off on any computer you own. I have a media centre PC and a desktop, and for those games, I can play the same campaign on either computer, and dont have to finagle a way to swap svage games from one to the other.

* indie dev support. So many indie devs have said they wouldn't have succeeded, without steam's active support and easy distribution network.

There's a bunch of community features, achievements, the game overlay, and other stuff, that don't particularly excite me, and of course offline mode, but the bullet point list above are all killer features IMO.

I'd also like to come back to this: "~85% fans saying everything is fine regardless of anything because Gabe Newell and Steam are heroes beyond reproach, something like Father Christmas and Superman"

There is a good reason for this. Steam and Valve are popular, because they are a good company. Most gaming companies are publicly owned, so have to make decisions that satisfy both shareholders and customers. Valve is privately owned, and only have to concern themselves with keeping their customers happy. Their company structure allows them to continue releasing free product for their games and keep multiplayer servers running years after the EA's, Activision and Ubisofts would have shut their servers down and started charging ridiculous prices for add-on map packs, etc.

So, valve have earned the popularity they have. That said, they aren't perfect. Their customer support is slow, there are features steam doesn't have but should, and most steam users are aware of their faults. Their popularity is not a case of blind groupthink. It's just people recognising a good service when they see it.

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Old 10th Jan 2013, 10:01   #85
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There is 40 million steam accounts and 6.6million concurrent users. i'd say those numbers are pretty good and if you think you are going to be the One amongst those numbers you are not.

New Vegas is available on the Xbox360 or PS3 so get one of those and play it.
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Old 10th Jan 2013, 12:54   #86
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The fact that Steam periodically asks you to participate in the Steam Hardware Survey (whereby it collects information about your hardware and installed software) suggests that it isn't doing any behind-the-scenes spying. They wouldn't ask for permission to collect that information if it was doing it (and more) in the background anyway.
Well... no. For that very reason it would be in there best interest to ask you to opt in/out of a survey. Because then some people think that because they're asking you they wouldn't also be doing it behind your back. The idea that Steam are actually watching you and taking information anyway is one of paranoia, pure and simple, however possible it actually is.

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As for throwing the word Spyware around...... you can opt-out of Steam Surveys, if even asked to submit one.
Indeed, and its not as if anything it does isn't displayed on there own website. They use it as information for development as far as I understand because they can see what spec computers people are using and there capabilities.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Angilion View Post
If I had said that Valve was a front for the Illuminati/New World Order/<insert your conspiracy group of choice here> and that Steam read your mind or controlled it, or something silly like that, that would have been tinfoil hat territory. But I didn't.

Steam gathers data from your PC and sends it to Valve. This is not a secret. It is not a conspiracy. It is not covered up. I just asked what data it gathers.

You are behaving like the most knee-jerk theists, outraged at any perceived slight to your faith in Valve.
Everything you have posted comes across as being paranoid, which speaks of tin-foil hats.

Is the data they sent what they say it is? Well I think it's a safe bet that (without searching for it cos I'm at work and cba to) people have monitored exactly what information the steam survey collects and sends to valve to know whether or not it is collecting what they say it is. If there had been even the slightest hint of foul play, something would have turned up.

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Old 10th Jan 2013, 13:01   #87
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Well... no. For that very reason it would be in there best interest to ask you to opt in/out of a survey. Because then some people think that because they're asking you they wouldn't also be doing it behind your back. The idea that Steam are actually watching you and taking information anyway is one of paranoia, pure and simple, however possible it actually is.
Realistically though? If they were already gathering hardware/software data in the background, it'd just be a thing they do and they wouldn't ask permission just to provide the illusion that all is well, unless there was some sort of malevolent intention in the first place.

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Old 10th Jan 2013, 14:08   #88
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Really, this is the future. You either accept it and join us or you're going to rapidly run out of games to play.

I appreciate some of your concerns but your posts do come across a little bit tin foil hat conspiracy nut
I enjoyed reading this thread, but at the end of the day this is by far the best response.
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Old 11th Jan 2013, 01:45   #89
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I've a question for the charming OP, why so defensive?

You asked a question and most people gave you the best answer they could give, it turned out to be the answer you had come to a conclusion about yourself prior to posting and such is the nature of internet forums you proceeded to get slightly trolled due to an increasingly defensive and may i say slightly rude attitude towards the responders, what exactly did you expect?

At this point you may aswell stop posting here because your just going to get trolled into the ground for been a bit of an arse.
No, I'll get trolled into the ground for not being a fan. Which, of course, fans will see as being a bit of an arse.

But a few people have made actual replies rather than insulting me for not unthinkingly accept the wonder of Steam, hallelujah and praise Steam! One person even answered my question. Well, several did but the others gave answers I know to be untrue.

The insults for not unthinkingly accepting the wonder of Steam was what I expected.

The reasonable posts and the actual answer was what I was hoping for.

Despite the number of people apparently trying to convince me that Steam is a cult for unpleasant people who must lash out at anyone who asks questions, I have got some information from which to make an informed choice. So from my point of view this thread has been at least partially successful.
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Old 11th Jan 2013, 02:09   #90
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you know .. i started to read this thread ...........got bored after 1 page and skimmed the rest ......

simple option .. if you have a problem with steam .DONT BUY GAMES THAT NEED IT + DON'T DOWNLOAD IT...

my only concern personally , is what happens to games i buy on it if valve go bust ?

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