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Old 17th Jan 2014, 15:43   #151
Greenja
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Originally Posted by Dolph View Post
Actually, I will sign if you'll amend the petition to suggest that tax arrears (and might as well throw in court fines etc) are deducted from source (benefits or earnings) as an alternative at either value or a cap of 20% of income until paid in full. That way we have no prison and a definite maintenance of income stream.

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Originally Posted by Hitman_Leon View Post
That would make far too much sense.
That is actually exactly what currently happens.

You are billed, you miss a month a reminder is issued.

No payment for reminder and summons is issued incurring 75 costs.

The council then obtain a liability order from the courts which allows them to do an attachment of benefit if you are on benefits (3.60 per week) or an attachment of earnings if you work (between 6% and 15% depending on how much you earn).

Nobody ever goes to prison for not paying Council Tax, it is virtually unheard of. Maybe occurs in the rarest of cases.

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Old 17th Jan 2014, 15:44   #152
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Originally Posted by Halfmad View Post
Is that big house and it's occupants using more council services? Not trolling, legitimate question, why should they pay a huge amount more in council tax? They have more money? Oddly enough we have a tax system that's meant to tax the rich, we just let them use loopholes to avoid it.

Council tax rebanding won't fix that.
It was a response to someone stating that it's based on property values. Yes it is, but hardly in a proportional fashion.

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Originally Posted by oweneades View Post
Playing devlis advocate: if both of those people in your example are using the council (local) services to an equal degree (which seems plausible considering what the services are (waste removal, street lighting, road management, police, fire etc), then why should someone pay more just because they earn more?
Because someone who can afford to pay 4,000/month on a mortgage/rent isn't going to struggle because of a 150 council tax payment. Someone who can only afford to pay 400/month potentially is.

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Old 17th Jan 2014, 15:49   #153
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Originally Posted by Halfmad View Post
Is that big house and it's occupants using more council services? Not trolling, legitimate question, why should they pay a huge amount more in council tax? They have more money? Oddly enough we have a tax system that's meant to tax the rich, we just let them use loopholes to avoid it.

Council tax rebanding won't fix that.
Many "rich" people can not use the loop holes, if they are payee they are stuffed. Where the biggest amount of loopholes are contractors and self employed of which few are rich. And most are working class. So its a bit of a silly statement. Focusing on the small portion of business owners making millions, when the majority that can use loopholes is working class self employed or contractors.

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Old 17th Jan 2014, 15:51   #154
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Originally Posted by oweneades View Post
Playing devlis advocate: if both of those people in your example are using the council (local) services to an equal degree (which seems plausible considering what the services are (waste removal, street lighting, road management, police, fire etc), then why should someone pay more just because they earn more?
I didn't say they should pay more, I say the people who earn less should pay less.

Then they might not need to take as much benefits back out of the system. Tax credits and that malarkey.

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Old 17th Jan 2014, 15:52   #155
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Originally Posted by Haggisman View Post

Because someone who can afford to pay 4,000/month on a mortgage/rent isn't going to struggle because of a 150 council tax payment. Someone who can only afford to pay 400/month potentially is.


Adding more devils to the mix, should we apply the same policy to a pint of milk? What's the point of earning more if everything is in proportion to your wage? rent 35%. Council tax 6%. Pint of milk 0.03%.

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Old 17th Jan 2014, 15:58   #156
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Originally Posted by LeeUK View Post
Council tax should be means tested.

Someone earning 50k paying same amount as someone earning minimum wage is not right.
Why, this is already taken care of in tax from your pay. Making everything means tested, is just so darn expensive and complicated, just raises the price for everyone as you have to hire thousands of people to check it and sort it out.

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Old 17th Jan 2014, 15:59   #157
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Originally Posted by LeeUK View Post
Council tax should be means tested.

Someone earning 50k paying same amount as someone earning minimum wage is not right.
Does this mean that the person paying the higher amount of council tax because they earn more gets better use of the facilities this extra payment is used for as this tax is different to your normal income tax.

Id like to have a signature but apparently a few lines of text is too much.....Plus no one wants to tell me why.
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Old 17th Jan 2014, 16:08   #158
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Because someone who can afford to pay 4,000/month on a mortgage/rent isn't going to struggle because of a 150 council tax payment. Someone who can only afford to pay 400/month potentially is.
How about people just pay what it costs.

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Old 17th Jan 2014, 16:10   #159
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One of my favourite things to watch on tv is to watch Baliffs come and take things from people who try to live above their means....people who buy cars, houses, general luxuries they cant afford......people who havent worked very hard in life and ended up in meanial jobs, but still want all the things in life that the hardworking, well paid people have earnt.

This in turn breeds a debt culture and attitudes like the OP.....where not paying a tax that everyone in this country has to pay should be acceptable.

Its all take take take, but when expected to give back they kick and scream and say its unfair.

Why should I and the rest of the working world pay for the services you use everyday by living in this country, while you spend your money on luxuries you cant afford and not pay your way?

People get enough help in this country from the tax man, job seekers, tax credits...and rightly so....we should help our fellow countrymen in times of need......but pi$$takers and tax dodgers can rot for all I care.

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Old 17th Jan 2014, 16:13   #160
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Since my Council Tax is only 60 a month I kind of think it's worth it.

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Old 17th Jan 2014, 16:19   #161
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Some people use council services more than others. I'm talking beyond street lights and bin collections.

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Old 17th Jan 2014, 16:42   #162
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Originally Posted by Trifid View Post
Adding more devils to the mix, should we apply the same policy to a pint of milk? What's the point of earning more if everything is in proportion to your wage? rent 35%. Council tax 6%. Pint of milk 0.03%.
Pretty sure people don't get forced to buy pints of milk they can't afford?

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Originally Posted by Woogie View Post
Does this mean that the person paying the higher amount of council tax because they earn more gets better use of the facilities this extra payment is used for as this tax is different to your normal income tax.
Well actually, you tend to find the people paying more council tax are the ones with nicer houses in nicer areas. Nicer areas with nicer parks, cleaner/better condition streets, etc. So... yes, yes they do.

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Old 17th Jan 2014, 16:55   #163
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Originally Posted by Trifid View Post
Adding more devils to the mix, should we apply the same policy to a pint of milk? What's the point of earning more if everything is in proportion to your wage? rent 35%. Council tax 6%. Pint of milk 0.03%.
cool sounds great

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Old 17th Jan 2014, 17:00   #164
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Originally Posted by francky View Post
One of my favourite things to watch on tv is to watch Baliffs come and take things from people who try to live above their means..

That means most people who have credit cards are doing the same. If you have the cash you buy if not then out comes the card.


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Old 17th Jan 2014, 17:06   #165
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It shouldnt be linked to salary. My salary is good, but I chose to live in a single occupancy band B flat (69 a month) so that I can save for a mortgage. Why should I pay more than a family in a 4 bedroom house because they have a lower income and inherited or bought the house with inheritance. Their net wealth is far higher than mine, so I don't see why I should help fund their choices.
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Old 17th Jan 2014, 17:11   #166
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Everyone can afford to pay council tax. Even if you're unemployable you still get benefits and discounts which means you'll be paying a lot less than the 191pm I have to find to pay for loads of services which I don't use.
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Old 17th Jan 2014, 21:02   #167
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Originally Posted by danielanthony View Post
Everyone can afford to pay council tax. Even if you're unemployable you still get benefits and discounts which means you'll be paying a lot less than the 191pm I have to find to pay for loads of services which I don't use.
Pray tell, what discounts do you get for being retired and on a lowly pensioners wage?

And JSA barely comes to that amount.

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Originally Posted by Glaucus View Post
Why, this is already taken care of in tax from your pay. Making everything means tested, is just so darn expensive and complicated, just raises the price for everyone as you have to hire thousands of people to check it and sort it out.
You must be joking?

Do you realise how much it costs to have surveyors going round putting all the different properties into different council tax bands? If council tax is based on income it is so much easier to work out.

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Old 17th Jan 2014, 21:06   #168
Glaucus
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You must be joking?

Do you realise how much it costs to have surveyors going round putting all the different properties into different council tax bands?
Which happens how often. Once in a blue moon, other than for new properties.

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Old 17th Jan 2014, 21:17   #169
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Pretty sure people don't get forced to buy pints of milk they can't afford?
What staple food would you like me to use for the example? Or are you forgetting people need to eat?

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Originally Posted by badcompany View Post
cool sounds great
What do you want to use to compare peoples ability to pay? Income? Not very fair on those who don't work but are hugely wealthy. So Wealth? Not exactly fair for the banker who rents and spends every last penny on luxuries and therefore at the end of the month has zero wealth like the single mum working part time and struggles to feed herself.

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Old 17th Jan 2014, 21:33   #170
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I pay 250 per month in council tax. SADFACE.

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Old 17th Jan 2014, 22:52   #171
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I pay 250 per month in council tax. SADFACE.
Well thats what happens when you buy a castle and lord it over us peasants 'Tips hat' m'lord

Council tax is fine as it is.

I am far too lazy to type a signa
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Old 18th Jan 2014, 07:37   #172
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Taxation based on assets rather than income or service usage can never be fair as it is always unrelated to either means to pay or consumption.

Abolish it and replace it with a local income tax or a poll tax.

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Old 18th Jan 2014, 07:44   #173
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I think he means it's non-means tested, which I agree is a problem, taxes should always be means tested otherwise they can force people onto the streets who can't afford to pay them.
I disagree when the charge is for services. If you use shared services then you should pay a proportion of the costs of those services. I do think that 'Council Tax' is misnamed as it is not technically a tax at all, but a charge.

Personally I would like to see Council Tax abolished, increase Income Tax and have Central Govt fund most local services such as Policing, Roads etc through grants to local authority and other services such as Refuse Collection being charged directly to those that use them.

This would both simplify the tax system and ensure the ability to pay is protected.
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Old 18th Jan 2014, 07:58   #174
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If you do that though, you would have so many people dumping rubbish, burning rubbish etc. as its all bundled together they might as well use the rubbish collection.

And central government isn't very efficient.
But it does need changing.

In an ideal world places would be self governed, in small areas, that decide what level of sear ice they want and the cost. In reality this makes everything really expensive and why its better to do it by county, but the bigger it is less sy you have and more waste. But cheaper or should be cheaper contracts.

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Old 18th Jan 2014, 08:03   #175
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Well, it works in other countries, so I suspect that the claim that it would lead to everyone dumping rubbish is overstated.

Central Government is as efficent or more so than most Local Authorities currently, albeit both can and should be reformed and improved, with more devolved oversight so I don't see there being an argument to be had there either.
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Old 18th Jan 2014, 11:29   #176
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What staple food would you like me to use for the example? Or are you forgetting people need to eat?
The price of milk and other staples is defined by a multitude of factors, such as competition, supply and demand, cost of production, etc. None of which apply to council tax, so attempting to compare them is pointless...

Also in case you haven't noticed, there are now thousands of people who can't afford to buy these essentials and are having to use foodbanks. How many of these have been threatened with prison for not paying for this food?

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Old 18th Jan 2014, 12:05   #177
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You're missing my point, the milk was just there to exaggerate it (hence the devil comment) yet you've got hung up on it, and that is, not everything can be done on income as it doesn't capture all those who benefits from the services. It will be too complicated to work it out on a combination of wealth and income so that's out. And the current method based on value of the house while not perfect at least slightly represents wealth and slightly encourages people to live in appropriate homes for their needs.

There is also the single occupancy discount if it is just yourself, a couple can share the CT saving them selves both some money and a family makes the most use of local services yet benefit from paying no more then if they were just a couple. For those who are on low income can see if they qualify for benefits where they may receive a 100% reduction in the tax.


As far as I can see, no one here has come up with a better suggestion then the current system while not perfect. Poll tax included.

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Old 18th Jan 2014, 13:57   #178
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...and other services such as Refuse Collection being charged directly to those that use them. .
As someone who works in that industry that wouldn't work. People would just not pay for the service and fly tip. The only reason we (the council I work for) offer a free bulky waste collection service was because when we charged people just dumped them and we had to pick them up anyway at a cost to the tax payer.

So if people are will to dump huge bed frames and cookers they'd think nothing of dumping black bags on the street.

Under the current system we manage to provide 3 separate collections and a free bulky item collection service for less than a 1 a week per household. Now you go to a private contractor and see if they can match that price.

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Old 18th Jan 2014, 15:00   #179
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Well thats what happens when you buy a castle and lord it over us peasants 'Tips hat' m'lord

Council tax is fine as it is.
Less of the cheek and get yourself back into the fields, serf!

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Old 19th Jan 2014, 10:38   #180
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Which happens how often. Once in a blue moon, other than for new properties.
This is creating quite a pricing anomoly now. Properties that have been refurbished since they were valued in 1991 typically have a much lower tax band than equivalent-value properties that have been built since. I've often wondered if home report valuations should be used to update tax bands.
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