got a third worth bothing with masters?

Soldato
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so our son has spent 5 years at uni and got a third

I don't feel its worth while spending more time / money to get a masters, it's not even really a "get a job" degree,

any thoughts on this, or factors that should be taken into account?

to me it seems like the uni has no interest in helping him work towards a career they just want to keep him in paying them cash...

He wants to work in a lab (which seems a bit general to me)
 
Soldato
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What was his degree in?

I only got a 2:2 but a few years later went on to do a masters. I only did it out of interest rather than career progression.

Might be worth getting some real world work experience so that he can get a better idea where he wants to go with it.
 
Soldato
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Pointless, if he wasn't interested in putting the effort in the first time round he probably won't bother for a masters either.

that was my line of thinking as well, I feel he has treated it like school and done just enough to pass,

but I'd be interested to see what others think
 
Soldato
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What was his degree in?

I only got a 2:2 but a few years later went on to do a masters. I only did it out of interest rather than career progression.

Might be worth getting some real world work experience so that he can get a better idea where he wants to go with it.

it was in biology - evolution and development, though he says he enjoys the subject the UNI don't seem to have any sensible career suggestions (other than working in a lab)... and i'm guessing a third is very low so either he did not try or he is not very good at it.
 
Soldato
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I think biology is a subject where you will struggle to get a job without a masters and good experience. He might not be let on a good masters course (good uni) without a strong Bachelors so I would probably reconsider this option.

It isn't easy to get a 2.1 / 1st in uni, but maybe ask why he struggled and what he will do to improve? Getting another poor degree in a masters is abortive time imo.
 

Hxc

Hxc

Soldato
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Getting a third is hard; you have to really have a strange level of knowledge and application not to be good enough to get a 2:2, or to fail. A masters is a bad idea.
 
Associate
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A third is just another name for a pass. I'm surprised they'd accept him on to a masters with a third, in my experience they usually stipulate a 2:1 (bear in mind I'm in engineering). It's probably a bad idea, you have to have a fair amount of drive and determination to get a post-graduate masters.

He could probably get a job as a lab assistant/lab tech, but it would be a bottom-of-the-ladder job that may not even require a degree (probably why the Uni is suggesting it).

My advice would be to forget a masters and focus on finding a job, but it may not be easy with a 3rd.

My Uni had no interest in helping me find a job when I graduated. Graduate schemes are heavily over-subscribed and in my case were fruitless. It took 18 months of hard work and a lot of positivity to get myself into an engineering job with a 2:1. I must have applied for literally hundreds of jobs and attended at least a dozen interviews before I got the job where I am now. I often found I was either grossly over-qualified for the role or massively inexperienced for the roles.
 
Soldato
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He is going to have to focus on finding a job I would say.. though how much a third is going to help him I don't know!

He would be excluded from most graduate schemes so he is likely looking at entry positons that don't actually need a degree to secure.
 
Caporegime
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Most masters degrees require a 2:1 with some less competitive ones allowing people in with a 2:2.

Did he struggle with the course or is he lazy? Or was there some issue that came up beyond his control affecting his performance? What does he feel about the third?

A masters could be an idea if it was the latter or if he was lazy and now massively regrets this. And in the case of the issue beyond he control he can still perhaps explain away the poor undergrad performance - especially if he then performs well in the masters degree.

The reason I ask that is that it seems unusual to be offered a place on a masters degree with a third so perhaps there was some additional reason for it - especially if he seems to have taken additional years to get to this point.

to me it seems like the uni has no interest in helping him work towards a career

well they've presumably got a careers service and maybe the department has some links with industry but aside from that it isn't really their role to do that - they exist primarily for academic study.
 
Caporegime
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He would be excluded from most graduate schemes so he is likely looking at entry positons that don't actually need a degree to secure.

Yup, though he could take a punt at a select few:

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/201...-classification-entry-criteria_n_7932590.html

Ernst & Young, one of the UK’s biggest graduate recruiters, has announced it will be removing the degree classification from its entry criteria, saying there is “no evidence” success at university correlates with achievement in later life.

In an unprecendented move, the accountancy firm is scrapping its policy of requiring a 2:1 and the equivalent of three B grades at A-level in order to open opportunities for talented individuals “regardless of their background”.

I also know one guy (though this was a few years ago mind) who got a trainee accountancy position at some local firm with a third... seemingly they didn't have many (or perhaps even any) other applicants and he was likable at interview and able to spin a story about how his commitment to the rugby team(read: being ridiculously drunk most nights) affected his academic performance which he now regrets etc... (he qualified in the end so perhaps it wasn't a bad move in hiring him on their part after all).

then again if OP's son wants to 'work in a lab' perhaps he's not going to be interested in typical 'grad schemes' anyway
 
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Man of Honour
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I got a Third and am currently undertaking a Masters (nearly finished). I found postgraduate study easier than undergraduate, largely because I chose a subject area that was of more interest to me and wasn't really prepared for 'self motivation' when I went to uni. By 90's standards I got decent A-levels (AAB) and GCSEs (3A*, 5A, 1B), but didn't really apply myself that well at uni and spent most of my time enjoying myself. It was also when I got access to the internet...

One of the reasons I did the Postgrad Diploma was because a 3rd doesn't really help you get a decent job (2:2 is the minimum most employers looking for graduates want) but doing postgraduate study impresses some hiring managers (I've been told this directly) as it shows commitment and provides an opportunity to demonstrate that the degree classification didn't tell the whole story in terms of academic potential.
 
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He could do an MRes with a third which would be lab based, however he would struggle during the application process against other candidates with a better qualification.

A taught masters (MSc) seems pretty pointless on several fronts, if he wants to work in a lab there is little benefit to enrolling on a taught masters course as a lab based career would prefer someone with a lot of lab experience and knowledge that would be gained in MRes. Also if he only managed a third in an undergrad degree due to messing around and not taking it seriously or if that genuinely is his intellectual capabilities he is really going to struggle with the workload of a taught masters course as it is a lot more intense. Although in saying that I hope he is aware that an MRes or lab based job will likely be 9-5, 5 days a week and often times you might have to work late to finish that critical experiment.
 
Caporegime
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I got a Third and am currently undertaking a Masters (nearly finished). I found postgraduate study easier than undergraduate, largely because I chose a subject area that was of more interest to me and wasn't really prepared for 'self motivation' when I went to uni. By 90's standards I got decent A-levels (AAB) and GCSEs (3A*, 5A, 1B), but didn't really apply myself that well at uni and spent most of my time enjoying myself. It was also when I got access to the internet...

One of the reasons I did the Postgrad Diploma was because a 3rd doesn't really help you get a decent job (2:2 is the minimum most employers looking for graduates want) but doing postgraduate study impresses some hiring managers (I've been told this directly) as it shows commitment and provides an opportunity to demonstrate that the degree classification didn't tell the whole story in terms of academic potential.

Out of interest did you go straight from undergrad to post or is there a significant time gap? If you have relevant experience then the low grade at undergrad won't matter as much.

Unless there are some major extenuating circumstances that the university know about I would doubt any masters someone with a third and no work experience would be accepted on would be worth doing. If you want to do a masters to start your career then you want to aim for one with good industry links, which will also be one that everyone else will want to be on, aka competitive. It may be best for your son to do a few years in a job and then head back to uni with the experience under his belt, rather than just shelling out more money.

On the plus side if he is smart and really does just do enough to "pass" then a masters should be simple enough. There aren't really any important grade boundaries other than the Pass/Fail boundary. Few bother with whether someone has a Distinction or "just" a pass, although some unis have Merits (between a pass and distinction), but again it's doubtful anyone will really care, unless he then decided to go on and do a PhD, then it may come into it.
 
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Man of Honour
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Quite a time gap. I graduated 15 years ago, then did PG Dip part time 2008-11, followed by a ~4 year gap before starting my research project. My motivation was split as for me it wasn't just about looking to further my career, it was also because I missed study and learning new things, and also a matter of personal pride in that I felt I had 'unfinished business' in the world of academia.
 
Caporegime
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I'd suspect your PG Diploma played a big part there


that is a very straightforward case of being able to demonstrate that you messed up/something went wrong first time around at uni but now you've demonstrated you do have what it takes to successfully complete academic study
 
Soldato
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Some thoughts:

A general degree in a traditional -- hence easily recognisable -- subject (at random: Pure/Applied Maths, History, Physics, Philosophy, English Literature, Law, Computer Science, Engineering, Medicine, among others) is usually done to either go into a profession, work out what one wants to do in life or pursue a passion.

A Third therefore presents a problem, albeit not an intractable one, for all three routes out of undergraduate education. It's hard to give detailed advice without knowing the whole history of how we got here, your son and what he wants to do, really; nonetheless, let's put a few options on the table and avoid panic. Although be aware that no route will entirely erase his prior academic history, and he will need to develop a compelling, evidence-backed argument for potentially tough interviewers and application forms, regardless of where he goes. (Lying about your qualifications or not being able to justify and explain results you got is a big no-no in both academia and industry. But with wit and charm 'failure' can be handled rather better than people realise.)

Take a short break and plunge back into academia (having brushed up on the trouble areas):

If he's passionate enough and it was largely bad luck and personal circumstances that limited his potential, it's perfectly feasible to come back from a Third. Although I would not advise trying to salvage too much via retakes of exams, years or coursework over the summer: these are often capped, and are of use only in either getting a qualification or a borderline case to perhaps salvage a moderately higher pass; depends on the subject and university policy, of course.

So how to dodge the Third here? Well, HE is a consumer industry, more or less, at this point of his education, and so there are always other products he can have a look at, namely postgraduate diplomas or masters which integrate them (2 years). Postgraduate modules are on average harder and there's at least one more piece of extensive independent work he will have to complete (project, dissertation, thesis, etc.) to get an actual masters. Then progress on from there.

The caveat being that it's more time, more cash and things get less and less structured and much harder later on. He might be forced to take his PgDip course at a fairly lenient institution which may be miles away from home/his current city of residence, jumping once again to get a Masters at a place with a bit more prestige or employer reputation (as a fallback) for the course. It will be a stressful slog. On top of that, the chances of a steady academic career in the UK are low; starting off a third they are non-zero but become vanishingly small.

Pick up any job, study part time and retry for a career with a better result:

A middle-of-the-road and fairly pragmatic approach to take. He can earn some cash, recover a bit and pick up study in the evenings or via distance learning. The transfer of academic credits from his better modules is also possible for the same or related subject areas (so he'll have less to do again overall); The Open University, for example, is reasonably flexible in this regard.

It's possible to progress all the way up to a PhD via part-time learning, whilst keeping your options grounded and open. You never know, he might also stumble into an area of work/career which will have progression routes that are not reliant so much on academics or offer vocational training/independent certification. If he's a good talker, Sales is a decent enough leg up.

Of course, going into work off the back of what can be construed as a personal failure can have a psychological effect on him, and he can equally end up in a situation which bores him to death and destroys any last shred of creativity and original thinking he has left. Part-time, distance and evening study is also not for everyone: working, earning and sacrificing your free time for a qualification is daunting and requires flexibility, planning and determination to succeed come what may.

Still, a good degree in many cases is a good degree, and grad schemes will open up to him again in the end.

Do a 'conversion Diploma/Masters' course and exit with that:

Is he in the right subject? Most young people aren't! Say he started in Maths and hated it but always loved computers, programming and creative problem-solving regardless; why not try Computer Science? But as with the first option, same caveats apply. Plus he might dislike or struggle with how the subject he studied connects to and is manifested in industry. But having a Masters is a notch up on his CV, and sidestepping into a different career with some work experience with a stronger terminal qualification at one's back is easier than without.

He we'll also need to get some independent career advice and counselling to make this really work well for him.

Choose a profession with a separate qualifications route:

Accountancy
Risk Management
Skilled Trades via an adult apprenticeship
Certified IT Tech/Developer/Architect/Database Administrator

and the like. This route can either work out cheaper and more fulfilling or an even greater money sink (without employer support) and disappointment, as some careers that are in demand and pay well are almost unbearable to handle without the right mindset or willing to do anything for a stable pay cheque. Initially finding an employer that will sponsor your son or offer him any training may be difficult, but the beauty of independent and vocational qualification tracks is that you can go up partway yourself and show an employer you're a good investment long-term.
 
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As others have indicated, I think he'd struggle to get onto a graduate scheme. I'm in law, and anyone with less than a 2.1 would struggle to get an interview, below 2.2 almost no chance unless there were exceptional factors (illness etc and then you'd look at the previous years' results and A levels).

At this stage, I'd suggest he needs to get some practical work experience and find something that he's genuinely enthusiastic about. You mentioned he wants lab work - has he actually done a decent stint of work / work experience in a lab; the study vs work environment are very different.

I can't see any benefit in further study now unless he first finds something that will catch his interest and encourage him to work at it. The other advantage of work is it reinforces the need to study properly if he gets a chance in the future - a year or two of full time work will help him realise how tedious a job can be when you're not happy/interested in it!
 
Soldato
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As others have indicated, I think he'd struggle to get onto a graduate scheme. I'm in law, and anyone with less than a 2.1 would struggle to get an interview, below 2.2 almost no chance unless there were exceptional factors (illness etc and then you'd look at the previous years' results and A levels).

Law isn't particularly relevant as it's an oversubscribed course and very competitive.

I saw a few engineering positions with 2.2 requirements (generally lower payed)! A lot of stuff eg marketing graduate schemes might have lower requirements. Generally a third is shooting yourself in both feet!
 
Soldato
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Law isn't particularly relevant as it's an oversubscribed course and very competitive.

I saw a few engineering positions with 2.2 requirements (generally lower payed)! A lot of stuff eg marketing graduate schemes might have lower requirements. Generally a third is shooting yourself in both feet!

You could also graduate without honours, but let's not go there. It's reserved for all those who do not complete or fail their final year project work or its equivalent, with bare passes and other compound failures across a set of crucial modules on average.
 
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