The Virtual Surround Sound Thread "Headphones"

shankly1985 · 18 Sep 2016 at 13:43

Virtual Sound am convinced is a load of junk I hate the Echo effect it brings to games.
I have tested a lot over the years, Razer headphone software, Corsair 7.1, Dolby Headphone, DTSX and SBX
They all sound the same too me, but a new player is coming Sennheiser with its new GSX 1000/12000 who are saying The groundbreaking 7.1 Virtual Surround Algorithm was developed with the needs of professional gamers in mind. Experience surround sound on a new level.

This now has my interest a lot and am hoping they can somehow remove the echo effect that I firmly believe is not possible!

Feel free to post your own comparison videos with these virtual effect on and off maybe its just me? or maybe I have things setup wrong?

What do you guys think of this video? This is using SBX 66% notice the echo effect?

sHo0sH · 18 Sep 2016 at 15:31

I use a mixamp with my PlayStation, and would say that it works very well. I believe they use Dolby headphone? Either way it's a darned sight better than stereo for positional gaming for me

Marsman · 18 Sep 2016 at 15:50

Yeah, Mixamp uses DH.

All these algorithms work for some people but don't for others. Not sure there is ever going to be one that will work for everyone. When it comes to audio, so much comes down to personal preference.

Not tried SBX, but I preferred CMSS 3D over DH.

Ryanr1987 · 18 Sep 2016 at 16:29

I own the X7 and I get don't any horrible reverb plugged into the K702 and HD800 which are both analytical headphones. I get it on my Mixamp but I do find it recording dependant with the X7.

The X7 doesn't have the greatest front and rear cues, the Mixamp is superior there. I doubt Sennheiser will offer huge improvements unless they really push the boat out and surprise everyone.

I personally think SBX is the best experience in terms of clarity and refinement; form what I've tried so far anyway.

shankly1985 · 18 Sep 2016 at 17:35

Bioshock

Uriel · 18 Sep 2016 at 21:38

Firstly - I'd like to reiterate what's been said about surround headphone virtualisation. They all usually suffer from the one size fits all approach. The best options use personal HRTF calibration but the prices are high (e.g. the Smyth Realiser). For the rest of us - we have to make do with the generic options. My advice would be listen to a few options to see what suits you.

I'm fortunate in that Dolby Headphone suits me very well (to the point where it can do a passable impression of reality). However - I don't like most Dolby Headphone products available for gaming (e.g. mixamp, most DH headsets). To explain why - it's really down to the reverb. Older Dolby Headphone equipment (e.g. early Xonars - and various receivers) used to come with 3 options - DH1, DH2 and DH3.

- DH1 simulated a dampened studio environment with near field monitor speakers. This had very little to no echo.

- DH2 was a 'standard' listening room with some echo and the speakers simulated further away.

- DH3 was a large room with extra echo (maybe something like a jazz club or music arena).

To my ears, games usually sounded best on DH1. Games usually have simulated environmental effects like echo / reverb. Adding extra echo just turned it into an unnecessary echofest - ergo DH2 and DH3 were relatively unsuitable for most games.

If you get something with just one Dolby Headphone option, it's basically an updated version of DH2. Unfortunately there are very few commercially available products that still have DH1.

At the moment I'm using My SoundBlaster Z to encode Dolby Digital or DTS connect over optical (I never got on with Xonars for legacy gaming). That feeds into a Victor SU-DH1 headphone processor which produces the Dolby Headphone effects.

There don't seem to be too many videos that show DH1 in game.

This is a fairly useful video showing off a number of virtual headphone technologies. It uses DH2 for Dolby Heaphone (with added reverb) but I guess it's a handy comparison.

One thing I will say is that virtual surround over headphones is an inherently superior technology to so-called 'real' surround headphones. Surround virtualisation is at least theoretically capable of representing surround sound to an individual with reasonable accuracy. I'm not yet aware of any 'real' headset design that has a hope of achieving this. That's not to knock 'real' surround headsets. I used to own a set of Speedlink Medusas and thought they were brilliant until I heard better. It's not that 'real' surround headsets don't work. It's just that they have some technical limitations which they are never going to get past (unless someone comes up with a fairly radical design). Actually - the Medusa's worked out better set to stereo mode (where it just plays stereo through all the surround speakers) with Dolby Headphone played through them than they were in 5.1 mode. I've heard some stereo headphones do a worse job.

shankly1985 · 18 Sep 2016 at 23:01

To me the order best to worst in that video was CMSS 3D, THX, Razer then Dolby

Uriel · 19 Sep 2016 at 00:07

shankly1985 said:
To me the order best to worst in that video was CMSS 3D, THX, Razer then Dolby

To me - Dolby Headphone is the only one in there that separates the sound from the headphone drivers and really takes it away from my head (giving the illusion that I'm not wearing headphones). But there is too much echo and I find that irritating (probably the problem being it's DH2).

I can detect an element of surround - at least separation between front and back - in all of them. CMSS-3D sounds the most 'boxed in' to me.

You get some loss of clarity due to simulated distance attenuation with Dolby Headphone - but that's actually relatively realistic. It does veil some detail but that contributes to the realism for me.

Having said that - no matter how you try to spin the objective components of the sound processing some of these algorithms work better for some people than others. I don't share your ears or head shape (if anything I have an unusually large head).

What headphones are you using for these? I always found that CMSS-3D played better with headphones that already have a large, forward projected, soundstage (usually using angled drivers etc). Dolby Headphone seems to work better with headphones that don't have any inbuilt 'psychoacoustic' tricks. Any lack of control of the headphone drivers breaks the illusion too.

Dicehunter · 19 Sep 2016 at 00:14

From what I've experienced so far surround on headsets is just awful, We have 2 ears, Just use 2 speakers on your head.

Uriel · 19 Sep 2016 at 00:22

Dicehunter said:
From what I've experienced so far surround on headsets is just awful, We have 2 ears, Just use 2 speakers on your head.

Yes - that's what this thread is about.

The issue is that real life doesn't sound like a speaker strapped to each ear (which is about as complex as some stereo gaming audio gets). What those of us interested in virtual surround are looking for is something that bridges the gap.

5.1 or 7.1 (speakers as well as headphones) are fudges that partially make up for games not providing a fully simulated audio environment with directional and distance cues. But compared to just a speaker strapped to each side of your head they are an improvement.

Virtual surround, if done well, allows the user to benefit from the 5.1 or 7.1 speaker fudge.

Back in the day (when DirectSound3D and OpenAL were all the rage). CMSS-3D actually did a full 3d simulation of the gaming environment (not just simulating speakers over headphones). Unfortunately thanks to Microsoft sucking the life out of gaming audio back with the launch of vista it mostly just simulates surround speakers over headphones these days. 2004-2006 was basically the pinacle of PC gaming audio and we have seen massive regression since then. In most cases we're not even back to where we were then.

Ryanr1987 · 19 Sep 2016 at 09:21

Uriel said:
Firstly - I'd like to reiterate what's been said about surround headphone virtualisation. They all usually suffer from the one size fits all approach. The best options use personal HRTF calibration but the prices are high (e.g. the Smyth Realiser). For the rest of us - we have to make do with the generic options. My advice would be listen to a few options to see what suits you.

I'm fortunate in that Dolby Headphone suits me very well (to the point where it can do a passable impression of reality). However - I don't like most Dolby Headphone products available for gaming (e.g. mixamp, most DH headsets). To explain why - it's really down to the reverb. Older Dolby Headphone equipment (e.g. early Xonars - and various receivers) used to come with 3 options - DH1, DH2 and DH3.

- DH1 simulated a dampened studio environment with near field monitor speakers. This had very little to no echo.

- DH2 was a 'standard' listening room with some echo and the speakers simulated further away.

- DH3 was a large room with extra echo (maybe something like a jazz club or music arena).

To my ears, games usually sounded best on DH1. Games usually have simulated environmental effects like echo / reverb. Adding extra echo just turned it into an unnecessary echofest - ergo DH2 and DH3 were relatively unsuitable for most games.

If you get something with just one Dolby Headphone option, it's basically an updated version of DH2. Unfortunately there are very few commercially available products that still have DH1.

At the moment I'm using My SoundBlaster Z to encode Dolby Digital or DTS connect over optical (I never got on with Xonars for legacy gaming). That feeds into a Victor SU-DH1 headphone processor which produces the Dolby Headphone effects.

There don't seem to be too many videos that show DH1 in game.

This is a fairly useful video showing off a number of virtual headphone technologies. It uses DH2 for Dolby Heaphone (with added reverb) but I guess it's a handy comparison.

One thing I will say is that virtual surround over headphones is an inherently superior technology to so-called 'real' surround headphones. Surround virtualisation is at least theoretically capable of representing surround sound to an individual with reasonable accuracy. I'm not yet aware of any 'real' headset design that has a hope of achieving this. That's not to knock 'real' surround headsets. I used to own a set of Speedlink Medusas and thought they were brilliant until I heard better. It's not that 'real' surround headsets don't work. It's just that they have some technical limitations which they are never going to get past (unless someone comes up with a fairly radical design). Actually - the Medusa's worked out better set to stereo mode (where it just plays stereo through all the surround speakers) with Dolby Headphone played through them than they were in 5.1 mode. I've heard some stereo headphones do a worse job.

I heard Dolby Headphone as being the warmest with the best depth. It sounded full and rich compared to the others. It wasn't clean but I thought it gave the best experience especially for it's all around cues.

People focus on DHs reverb but fail to focus on it's huge positive and that's it's
positional accuracy and more fun sound, can give you the theatre effect with the right headphones. Razor sounded so bad here! like it couldn't resolve!

TwsT · 19 Sep 2016 at 09:35

I personally hate it but then i play CSGO and aslong as the sound is produced i know where they are roughly stood

easyrider · 21 Sep 2016 at 00:18

I just installed a sound blaster Z going optical into a cakewalk U25EX

For gaming it's great...

Rroff · 21 Sep 2016 at 00:35

Uriel said:
To me - Dolby Headphone is the only one in there that separates the sound from the headphone drivers and really takes it away from my head (giving the illusion that I'm not wearing headphones). But there is too much echo and I find that irritating (probably the problem being it's DH2).

I can detect an element of surround - at least separation between front and back - in all of them. CMSS-3D sounds the most 'boxed in' to me.

You get some loss of clarity due to simulated distance attenuation with Dolby Headphone - but that's actually relatively realistic. It does veil some detail but that contributes to the realism for me.

Having said that - no matter how you try to spin the objective components of the sound processing some of these algorithms work better for some people than others. I don't share your ears or head shape (if anything I have an unusually large head).

What headphones are you using for these? I always found that CMSS-3D played better with headphones that already have a large, forward projected, soundstage (usually using angled drivers etc). Dolby Headphone seems to work better with headphones that don't have any inbuilt 'psychoacoustic' tricks. Any lack of control of the headphone drivers breaks the illusion too.

DH when it is working right does a good job of moving the sound "away" from the driver but I don't find the positional separation of sounds that great - it can be quite immersive when not too echoey for some single player games as you get some sense of depth to the soundscape but without any real precision to the depth - the Sennheiser 3D G4ME 1 dongle uses Pro Logic IIx as well as Dolby Headphone processing and does quite a good job without much echo but the C-Media codec backing it up sounds dull and lifeless :|

CMSS-3D generally sounds a bit primitive and raw but does a much better job of accenting the separation and position of sounds around the head which is cleaner and less cluttered which I find a much better solution for competitive gaming.

I long for the days there is a standard binaural API for games (along with proper sound physics for surfaces and occlusion, etc.).

sHo0sH · 21 Sep 2016 at 13:38

Anyone had a go on these ossics headphones that went on kick starter?? Look like they've got there own surround thing going on

shankly1985 · 21 Sep 2016 at 14:46

sHo0sH said:
Anyone had a go on these ossics headphones that went on kick starter?? Look like they've got there own surround thing going on

I was very close to backing it, but then thought best to wait on releases.

Uriel · 21 Sep 2016 at 15:34

Rroff said:
DH when it is working right does a good job of moving the sound "away" from the driver but I don't find the positional separation of sounds that great - it can be quite immersive when not too echoey for some single player games as you get some sense of depth to the soundscape but without any real precision to the depth - the Sennheiser 3D G4ME 1 dongle uses Pro Logic IIx as well as Dolby Headphone processing and does quite a good job without much echo but the C-Media codec backing it up sounds dull and lifeless :|

CMSS-3D generally sounds a bit primitive and raw but does a much better job of accenting the separation and position of sounds around the head which is cleaner and less cluttered which I find a much better solution for competitive gaming.

I long for the days there is a standard binaural API for games (along with proper sound physics for surfaces and occlusion, etc.).

Something I often forget about, and fail to mention, is that over the years I've been using the speaker version of CMSS-3d or THX Trustudio) with Dolby Headphone.

So with an X-Fi I used to use CMSS-3D in 4 channel mode (which turns on all the postional wizardry in games that support it that stops working in 5.1 mode), fed via DTS Connect to a Victor SU-DH1 in DH1 mode. So essentially I got the CMSS-3D postioning (for supported games) with the Dolby Headphone depth. It's more obvious for games that make use of MacroFX and Elevation filter but actually many of them would also make use of X-fi's speaker mixing too.

More recently I moved to a Soundblaster Z (due to mic issues in Win 10 for my X-Fi Prelude). I haven't really done some decent listening tests to determine what's working and what isn't in 5.1 mode with the SBZ (but unlike X-fi, it seems MacroFX and Elevation filter do work in 5.1 mode). And to be honest I don't have much time for competitive gaming these days.