F1 grid mix up.

andicole0 · 3 May 2016 at 13:19

I hate the idea of random grid mix up, but it does seem to be getting closer.
What about some sort of success penalty, maybe additional weight as in BTCC or how about - as we possibly have too many races - don't let the race winner or team compete in the next race.

Also what about an engine manufacturer championship alongside or in place of the team championship.
Andi.

Skeeter · 3 May 2016 at 13:25

Bernie? Is that you?

andicole0 · 3 May 2016 at 13:26

Skeeter said:
Bernie? Is that you?

Yes

I do worry we will get something stupid though.
Andi.

Mark365 · 3 May 2016 at 13:44

andicole0 said:
I hate the idea of random grid mix up, but it does seem to be getting closer.
What about some sort of success penalty, maybe additional weight as in BTCC or how about - as we possibly have too many races - don't let the race winner or team compete in the next race.

Also what about an engine manufacturer championship alongside or in place of the team championship.
Andi.

Cut that out Andi!! That's way too sensible and creative thinking, we don't like that sort of behaviour within the corridors of power in formula one.

Nismo · 3 May 2016 at 15:01

andicole0 said:
Also what about an engine manufacturer championship alongside or in place of the team championship.
Andi.

And how would that work unless the manufacturers split supply equally across the teams?

Currently you have [insert large number] Mercedes PUs up against 2 Honda ones. Well, 1 and a bit usually...

Skeeter · 3 May 2016 at 15:26

8 Mercedes
6 Ferrari (2016)
2 Ferrari (2015)
2 TAG
2 Renault
2 Honda

Moley · 3 May 2016 at 15:30

When I was younger I used to Kart race a lot at a local indoor circuit. The evenings racing consisted of five qualifying races in which you started on the grid in a different position each race and won points depending on where you finished. Points were then used to determine places for the semi finals and final races.

Made for a really good format - I got to the stage where I could often finish first in each of the qualifying races and on the podium in the finals.

Qualifying *can* be interesting - if the teams don't game the system and go with the spirit of the qualifying format, but they are not incentivised to do that right now.

andicole0 · 3 May 2016 at 17:18

Nismo said:
And how would that work unless the manufacturers split supply equally across the teams?

Currently you have [insert large number] Mercedes PUs up against 2 McLaren ones. Well, 1 and a bit usually...

Yes, confirmed engine manufacturers would have to equally share the engines out. But Bernie was after a standard engine anyway.

Skeeter said:
8 Mercedes
6 Ferrari (2016)
2 Ferrari (2015)
2 TAG
2 Renault
2 Honda

Engines should be the same this year, Tag Heuer and Renault should be the same, so 8 Ferrari, 4 Tag Heuer/Renault, 2 Honda and 8 Mercedes engines.
Andi.

Skeeter · 3 May 2016 at 17:21

Bernie wasn't after a standard engine (not this time round anyway), he was after an independent engine, i.e one available at a fixed, low price to teams from a supplier that did not own or have any involvement with an existing F1 team.

Also, what do you mean engines "should be the same"? They aren't this year, and the rules allow them to have many different configurations across the grid even from the same supplier. There can be prior year spec, current year launch spec, and current year upgraded spec of which there may be multiple. In theory, with 5 engines per season and the cut off for homoligation being before the season starts, there's 7 different specs of engine that could be used per manufacturer throughout a single season.

andicole0 · 3 May 2016 at 17:31

Skeeter said:
Bernie wasn't after a standard engine (not this time round anyway), he was after an independent engine, i.e one available at a fixed, low price to teams from a supplier that did not own or have any involvement with an existing F1 team.

Also, what do you mean engines "should be the same"? They aren't this year, and the rules allow them to have many different configurations across the grid even from the same supplier. There can be prior year spec, current year launch spec, and current year upgraded spec of which there may be multiple. In theory, with 5 engines per season and the cut off for homoligation being before the season starts, there's 7 different specs of engine that could be used per manufacturer throughout a single season.

Not the way I understood it.
Andi.

Skeeter · 3 May 2016 at 17:33

Which bit?

andicole0 · 3 May 2016 at 17:40

Skeeter said:
Which bit?

Tag Heuer is just a badged Renault 2016 engine, 2015 engines are not allowed all customer engines must be at least the homologated version. Changes are then srtictly limited by the token system and as far as I've heard so far none of the teams are using token updates on one teams engines - yet

Andi.

Skeeter · 3 May 2016 at 17:58

Then you have misunderstood it.

Toro Rosso are running 2015 Ferrari engines. There is no obligation for token upgraded engines throughout the year to be made available to customer teams, and with 5 engines per season, its theoretically possible (although unlikely) that you could have 5 variations of a single engine used throughout the year.

Last weekend Ferrari ran with upgrades to their engine that were not on the Haas or Sauber cars. The upgrades Mercedes applied were available to all customer teams.

So already this year we have seen 3 different Ferrari engine spec's used (2015, 2016, 2016 upgraded), and 2 different Mercedes specs (2016, 2016 upgraded). All 3 of the Ferrari specs have been used at the same time in the same race.

andicole0 · 3 May 2016 at 22:19

Oh yes -

"The first hurdle was cleared on Wednesday when the FIA granted permission for Ferrari to supply Toro Rosso with a 2015-spec unit.

The current regulations do not allow for two different specifications of power unit from one manufacturer to be used in a single season, with special dispensation required from the FIA."
Andi.

Skeeter · 3 May 2016 at 23:07

2 out of the 3 seasons of the V6s have seen at least one team running year old engines.

MissChief · 4 May 2016 at 00:55

The new 2017 rules fix the price of the engines and actually reduce the pricing from 2017 onwards.

andicole0 · 4 May 2016 at 10:21

Skeeter said:
2 out of the 3 seasons of the V6s have seen at least one team running year old engines.

I was surprised Torro Rosso were allowed to do this. Now they seem to be stuck with it as Sauber and Haas have been offered the latest Ferrari update.
Andi.

Vish Petrol · 4 May 2016 at 10:25

Haas is basically Ferrari's second team, so no surprise that they've been offered it.

Skyboat · 4 May 2016 at 10:50

Red Bull probably didn't want their junior team beating them with superior engines

Skeeter · 4 May 2016 at 11:51

Year old engines were all Ferrari offered to STR.

Marussia ran year old Ferrari engines in 2015 on cost grounds. All you have to do is ask the FIA and they will probably say yes. If you asking, its probably the difference between running old engines or not competing at all, so the FIA will nearly always allow it.

Next years rules should prevent it, so it will be interesting to see what RBR and STR do next year. Both teams have 1 year deals on their current engine contracts, as far as I know. The deadline for them signing another one, according to the 2017 regulations, is 1st June. After that, the formula to force a supplier to supply them kicks in.