Business Router

Logsi · 16 Jan 2017 at 11:56

The company I work for are moving premises and we're currently doing the finishing touches to the network infrastructure.

We've got a lease setup with BT and they've sold us a IDSN Avaya IP Office system with 24 port fast ethernet switch and 12 phones soon to be 18. We have 4 ISDN lines currently and just this minute having another 4 put in as I type to bring us up to 8 for multiple calls.

We have 2 fibre to the premises connections coming in to the office currently at 80/20. I'm utilising both currently by having one going into the Avaya 24 port switch and the other connection going into a Cisqo 24 port gigabit switch to troubleshoot any problems and ramp up work on them as more people are moved down. These FTTP connections are supplied with Business Hub 5s...

I'm a bit naive to setting up Phone and IT networks at the end of the day and want to make sure we've got a stable base. I'm not sold on a business hub 5 cutting the mustard so I want to replace one or maybe both of these with business grade routers. I also am a bit annoyed BT supplied us with a fast ethernet switch over the gigabit I specifically wanted but anyhoo...

My question is, is it better to go for a business router over a consumer router? The office will have 20 people in to start with and may ramp up. On router VPN would be ideal!

pcfarrar · 16 Jan 2017 at 12:10

Business Hub 5's aren't too reliable. I find they crash occasionally and need rebooting.

A cheap option would be to use a Draytek 2860, I have a few of these deployed and they are very reliable and can do VPN.

Logsi · 16 Jan 2017 at 15:24

pcfarrar said:
Business Hub 5's aren't too reliable. I find they crash occasionally and need rebooting.

A cheap option would be to use a Draytek 2860, I have a few of these deployed and they are very reliable and can do VPN.

Thanks for the reply. Will take a look at the Draytek.

I hate the hubs. I cannot believe they rely on these as a business solution.

Orcvader · 16 Jan 2017 at 16:05

pcfarrar said:
A cheap option would be to use a Draytek 2860, I have a few of these deployed and they are very reliable and can do VPN.

+1, using the 2860 for the main office at work, and we have two ADSL connections linked to the router in failover mode. Very reliable and has a lot of options to control your internal network. And the reboot times compared to the BT hub is considerably faster, the BT hubs takes ages getting the internet connection back up.

Caged · 16 Jan 2017 at 20:16

Your OP reads like it's 2004 at the start. Why are you putting ISDN in when you're based in Cornwall and have access to FTTP? You should be going SIP all the way and pocketing the large amount of cash that you save each month. ISDN is considered a legacy product now, and BT are switching it all off in 2025.

If you don't fancy having to set up more advanced quality of service type settings on a router then you could get the slowest Business Infinity product and use that just for voice since it will still have the quality and reliability of an FTTP connection, and then get the 300Mbps package for the data side of things. Or go to a provider who can offer Ethernet-over-FTTP and use a converged service.

Logsi · 17 Jan 2017 at 08:27

Caged said:
Your OP reads like it's 2004 at the start. Why are you putting ISDN in when you're based in Cornwall and have access to FTTP? You should be going SIP all the way and pocketing the large amount of cash that you save each month. ISDN is considered a legacy product now, and BT are switching it all off in 2025.

If you don't fancy having to set up more advanced quality of service type settings on a router then you could get the slowest Business Infinity product and use that just for voice since it will still have the quality and reliability of an FTTP connection, and then get the 300Mbps package for the data side of things. Or go to a provider who can offer Ethernet-over-FTTP and use a converged service.

I know right?

It's a long story which can be TL: DR into;

2/3 Years ago Ordered Fibre for our Store/Warehouse/Sub Office
Order never came to fruition and was cancelled out of the blue even though we had all fibre cable installed on the building, just needed to the fibre to be blown through it
Ended up getting copper ADSL with Plusnet as a stop gap for access for the engineers
Then needed to turn the warehouse into our main office a year and a bit ago as it was being converted
Called up BT Local Business to get a lease on equipment
Advised to get ISDN as it was more stable!?
Was promised fibre again with FTTC as a minimum
After the install was completed for the telephony and network we were told that the copper line that we were going to have FTTC to wasn't actually able to do it
Ended up with another ADSL line....
Fast forward a few months of complaints and putting the move on hold for 10 months I ordered FTTP on another address down this road and accosted the engineer on the day
Install then happened as i knew it was capable of FTTP here. Our address was almost blacklisted for FTTP as no matter of complaining or explaining what the OpenReach engineers had told us about a flooded floor box changed their minds...
Move is now happening a year later...and we've just got another 4 IDSN lines in totalling 8...

Probably missing a few details but BT have been awful and I will be putting in another complaint about their practices after we're settled. One of them being trying to sell us something at every turn including telling us we'd need too spend another £1500 so we could have more than 12 telephones connected to our system. In hindsight I wish we went with another company but I didn't know telephony and knowing what I know now I'd be pushing for SIP.

I feel like we've been kept in the dark with a lot of things and I've constantly been asking about why we have not been given SIP...most likely due to profit on their end...Just this past week I've been told by my BT rep that they transitioned to SIP to which I asked why we were not offered this, only to be told a load of waffle.

Glanza · 17 Jan 2017 at 08:50

+1 for the Drayteks, it's our go to router for our business customers.

Logsi · 17 Jan 2017 at 10:07

Glanza said:
+1 for the Drayteks, it's our go to router for our business customers.

Looking like I'll go this way, do like some of the functionality of it, especially the failover connections. Can this work with two fibre to the premises connection that connect via a WAN connection whilst keeping the OpenReach modem?

We do currently have 2x FTTP connections and 1x ADSL so worse case can connect the ADSL to the failover.

Caged · 17 Jan 2017 at 11:31

Are you dealing with BT or with a company trading as BT Local Business, because they are all bad. You'll need a DrayTek router with two Ethernet WAN ports - the 2925 is the lowest model that does this. Bear in mind this tops out at 300Mbps of throughput. If you want something a bit more powerful then look at the Ubiquiti EdgeRouter or EdgeRouter Pro.

Orcvader · 17 Jan 2017 at 11:40

While it does have a built in VDSL modem, you'll be needing your own modem for 2nd connection so if you have the Openreach modem you can just use that. I'm not 100% sure how you'll get the 3rd connection to the router though as having a quick look on the settings, WAN3 and WAN4 seems to be locked to the USB ports for 4G USB modems. They might work with ADSL USB modems according to this page but you'll need to check what's compatible.

You can idividually choose which WAN connection is always active and which one is the failover so you can have both FTTP connections active.

swinnie · 17 Jan 2017 at 13:09

Another vote for Draytek here, they're also my go to for business customers. Got a couple of customers with Draytek 2860s with multiple lines in failover.

Caged · 17 Jan 2017 at 13:35

Guys - it's FTTP, not FTTC. There's an Openreach ONT and that connects via ethernet. Built-in modems are no use unless the box also has two WAN ports for the FTTP links.

ov_sjo · 17 Jan 2017 at 14:25

I've never heard of an 80/20 FTTP service... I am questioning this.

bremen1874 · 17 Jan 2017 at 14:34

It certainly exists. Zen for example:

https://www.zen.co.uk/yourhome/superfast-fibre-broadband-packages/fibre-to-the-premises/

#Chri5# · 17 Jan 2017 at 14:36

80/20 FTTP is on my Enta pricelist as well

Sparx · 17 Jan 2017 at 17:25

#Chri5# said:
80/20 FTTP is on my Enta pricelist as well

£4.25 plus vat pm for 80/20 - where do I sign up?

Presume these are wholesale prices for ISPs? Interesting...

KIA · 17 Jan 2017 at 18:31

ov_sjo said:
I've never heard of an 80/20 FTTP service... I am questioning this.

https://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/ho...6rNZujnCs99NbIKJZPD9hXYmiijxH6wr CQm97GZMyQ==

Caged · 17 Jan 2017 at 20:51

Sparx said:
£4.25 plus vat pm for 80/20 - where do I sign up?

Presume these are wholesale prices for ISPs? Interesting...

That's the uplift charged over the FTTP product that presumably appears above them in the document that has been cropped.

pepp77 · 17 Jan 2017 at 21:05

Damn, probably the worst thing Avaya did to the IP office was allow BT to have their own branded versions (hell just allowing BT to install them is a joke). We have taken over the maintenance of so many BT installed IP Offices as they install the same config into each site with the most basic of changes incorporated, so instead of a phone having a persons name on it, it will have User 201 etc, then they want to charge more to put real names on it.

Have to agree with others you should definitely be looking at SIP over ISDN, it is about half the cost just for the trunks, then calls are cheaper and if you need to move office you can just move without having to get the lines and telephone numbers moved.

Drop me a trust message if you ever get really annoyed with BT and I am sure my company can do a much better job (we were the first company in the world to install and IP Office in Japan and have other companies all over the world).

For the router, personally I would be looking at getting something like a sonicwall in there and have both the fibre connections running through it, either in load balance or auto failover mode.

Finally I will say best of luck.

ov_sjo · 17 Jan 2017 at 22:25

KIA said:
https://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/ho...6rNZujnCs99NbIKJZPD9hXYmiijxH6wr CQm97GZMyQ==

Thanks, every day is a learning day.