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Old 31st Jan 2011, 19:22   #1
kwerk
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Could the universe be mapped out in binary code

Would it be theoretically possible to map out the entire universe in binary code? Could every single movement of every particle be simplified to an incredibly long series of 1/0 results?

And if it IS possible, then wouldn't this information already exist? As the universe itself??

Where the hell is the information being stored??
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Old 31st Jan 2011, 19:23   #2
salami1212
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwerk View Post
Would it be theoretically possible to map out the entire universe in binary code? Could every single movement of every particle be simplified to an incredibly long series of 1/0 results?

And if it IS possible, then wouldn't this information already exist? As the universe itself??

Where the hell is the information being stored??
in the electrical energy

melafruitan g@ntlworld.com
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Old 31st Jan 2011, 19:25   #3
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There was something about this that I didn't understand on a documentary lately, it is called the hologram theory or something. The information is stored at the edge of the universe. I think I could understand it if I really wanted too, but I don't see the point in me learning it tbh.

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Old 31st Jan 2011, 19:27   #4
muon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwerk View Post
Would it be theoretically possible to map out the entire universe in binary code? Could every single movement of every particle be simplified to an incredibly long series of 1/0 results?

And if it IS possible, then wouldn't this information already exist? As the universe itself??

Where the hell is the information being stored??
You have to consider a few quirks of quantum theory but yeh I think that was the notion one of the profs in the episode was getting at.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XO1UJXS2o34

The universe is just one massive mathematical equation. His hope was that if it was, then its within our realms of understanding.

edit:

more specifically here


.
Last edited by muon; 31st Jan 2011 at 19:30.
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Old 31st Jan 2011, 19:29   #5
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More interesting, irational numbers like Pi, contains an infinte string of digits that never repeats itself in a disernable pattern. Somewhere inside the digits of Pi is therefore contained an exact sequence representation of life the universe and everything.

Who woulda thunk it!

'Give us a minute and I'll be round to kiss your feet.' - robfosters
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Old 31st Jan 2011, 19:31   #6
lord filbuster
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No, you cannot map every particle. It violates the uncertainty principle, as well as requiring the same number of particles to represent the bits. Entropy probably has something to say about it too.
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Old 31st Jan 2011, 19:35   #7
G-MAN2004
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Originally Posted by kwerk View Post
Where the hell is the information being stored??
What information?

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Old 31st Jan 2011, 19:38   #8
muon
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---

.
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Old 31st Jan 2011, 19:44   #9
UncleBensSauce
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So you'd need at minimum at least 1 value for every atom in the universe (that would be at absolute minimum - not useful).

I highly doubt that a hard-drive can store any form of data, be it a single bit or sector, in less than the space of one atom. Surely this alone would mean that you would need a hard drive that was physically larger than the universe itself (assuming its not infinite).
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Old 31st Jan 2011, 19:45   #10
muon
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So you'd need at minimum at least 1 value for every atom in the universe (that would be at absolute minimum - not useful).

I highly doubt that a hard-drive can store any form of data, be it a single bit or sector, in less than the space of one atom. Surely this alone would mean that you would need a hard drive that was physically larger than the universe itself (assuming its not infinite).
I don't think he meant it literally.

How about the fact we know what Pi is and could work it out to arbitrarily large numbers of decimal places and yet there aren't enough atoms in the universe to get beyond a point.

.
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Old 31st Jan 2011, 19:48   #11
UncleBensSauce
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I don't think he meant it literally.
Well he said is it it theoretically possible.

What else would a theory consist of other than some random lunacy regarding the question in the OP
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Old 31st Jan 2011, 19:50   #12
G-MAN2004
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Mind = obliterated.

I'm out of here.

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Old 31st Jan 2011, 19:52   #13
UncleBensSauce
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ghost101 View Post
How about the fact we know what Pi is and could work it out to arbitrarily large numbers of decimal places and yet there aren't enough atoms in the universe to get beyond a point.
Surely Pi would end at the point that we ran out of atoms to write it with? Assuming we started in the smallest font possible.

Edit: on paper thinner than the loo roll at a "Welcome Break" - unless you know of a thinner material
Last edited by UncleBensSauce; 31st Jan 2011 at 19:55.
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Old 31st Jan 2011, 20:00   #14
dazzerd
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No.

Think about it. Assume the smallest particle in the universe is an atom and there are 1 million of them. Assuming we could even map a bit (1 or 0) on an atom then it would take the entire universe just to store the data. This is even without information which pertains to mass, acceleration charge and what not.

So no it can't be done unless you could devise a device which can store more information in less space than the smallest particle.
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Old 31st Jan 2011, 20:03   #15
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As has already been touched upon, entropy would begin to kick in at such large volumes, so error correction would have to be introduced, thus increasing the amount of bits needed to store the state of a single atom.
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Old 31st Jan 2011, 20:14   #16
kwerk
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Originally Posted by lord filbuster View Post
No, you cannot map every particle. It violates the uncertainty principle, as well as requiring the same number of particles to represent the bits. Entropy probably has something to say about it too.
Ok I just had a cool thought on my idea of thinking only in terms of distance.

Forget about temperature, velocity, mass, gravity and momentum for a moment. Think only in terms of distance in space and the movement of particles. And assume this space can vary in density.

Now think of distance as a potential route for a particle to travel in space. It's an option, a probability. "Mr. Quark, you can move this distance or you can say still, which will it be?".

If completely uncompressed empty space has zero distance, what I am really saying is it has zero probability for movement. It has no 1s or 0s. A particle cannot move in this space, therefore the matter has no temperature, no gravity, no energy and no mass. It almost doesn't exist.

Now think of the space compressing and becoming denser. What is really happening is the number of probabilities of movement is increasing. There are now some 1s and 0s and the particle has freedom to move over distance (but not much).

Now imagine even denser space where particles have great freedom to vibrate and move over distance. But instead of distance think of probabilities.

Could it be that matter has some instinct to move and is attracted to "denser space", and that is what gravity really is? Just clumps of matter in compressed space with room to breath so to speak? So going by this logic if you can call it that, reality can be simplified in to nothing but varying densities of space and in that space are degrees of freedom dictated by probabilities... which are nothing more than binary code. And if you just flipped the code to the opposite values you get anti-matter.

Maybe there is a finite number of bits in the universe and they have to be rationed out, and form these denser clumps and eventually patterns and life.
Last edited by kwerk; 31st Jan 2011 at 20:16.
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Old 31st Jan 2011, 20:15   #17
Castiel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwerk View Post
Would it be theoretically possible to map out the entire universe in binary code? Could every single movement of every particle be simplified to an incredibly long series of 1/0 results?

And if it IS possible, then wouldn't this information already exist? As the universe itself??

Where the hell is the information being stored??
Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation.



/thread
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Old 1st Feb 2011, 00:00   #18
UncleBensSauce
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RE: Pi

3.141<--------X--------><Answer>
Could we just have Picard ask Data what the last digit is?


<Data> How may I help you sir? </Data>

<Picard> Ah Data! I have a mission for you - recite Pi for me please </Picard>

<Data> Are you sure sir, *twitches* I cannot confirm how long this operation may take </Data>

<Picard>Urm, [*chuckles* + *stare* & *breeeth* = *serious*] just tell us the last digit please, if you had lived my life, you would understand my responsibility to the Federation, and why I must ask you to do this </Picardo>

<Data> Very well sir </Data>

<Data> *EXPLODES* </Data>

<Picard>

</Picard>


/thread
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Old 1st Feb 2011, 00:19   #19
Dunks
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You clearly have too much time on your hands

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Old 1st Feb 2011, 00:22   #20
UncleBensSauce
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You clearly have too much time on your hands
Only a pint left and I can leave the interwebz in peace
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Old 1st Feb 2011, 00:28   #21
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......plus you'd need more atoms that there are in the universe because you'd need atoms for the MD5 checksum.

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Old 1st Feb 2011, 00:29   #22
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Maybe the data could be stored as photons? There doesn't seem to be a limit on the number of photons that we can produce (other than the energy required to make them - would only need a few million stars linked up to a big laser... probably. Using photons, I don't see why you couldn't store data on every single particle, except photons, because then obviously you'd be screwed. (so just store the data for atoms, maybe some naturally produced electrons and protons... maybe). (unless you could store information for 'natural photons', but not the ones created for storage purposes... but then you'd probably need at least half the stars in the universe powering your laser system...)

If the system were to be practical, apart from the data collection, I think any form of processing would be impossible on any feasible timescale - maybe 1 nanosecond of simulation time per trillion trillion trillion years?? depending on the storage system used, and processing apparatus. (think of working out how every atom is affected by every other atom, and particle...)
But just for storage, I could envisage some ginormous circuit with magic photon containment somehow, going round the galaxy or something...
Or maybe a stream of photons going in a certain direction to another galaxy and back again, reflected from a perfectly reflecting mirror, with many streams going in many different directions....

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Old 1st Feb 2011, 00:37   #23
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If it were possible then couldn't you fast forward time in a simulation of the data?
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Old 1st Feb 2011, 00:45   #24
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No. Research Quantum Mechanics.

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Old 1st Feb 2011, 00:50   #25
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No. Research Quantum Mechanics.
This, you would get into trouble when you realise atoms can be in more than 1 place at a time.
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Old 1st Feb 2011, 00:51   #26
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Surely this in it's self is paradoxical. As someone has already stated, it would require the same amount of particles to represent this data, but if you look beyond that, it would be mapping it's self in a never ending loop?
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Old 1st Feb 2011, 00:53   #27
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My initial response is how would one collect that all that data to begin with? There are galaxies, planets, stars, moons and other bodies out there that we cannot even observe as they are so far away.

My second knee jerk reaction to this question is we we can't even map out our earth in binary code, let alone the universe. The universe is forever changing much like the composition of atoms inside your kitchen.

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Old 1st Feb 2011, 01:17   #28
kwerk
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This, you would get into trouble when you realise atoms can be in more than 1 place at a time.
What about quantum bits (1 and 0 at the same time).
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Old 1st Feb 2011, 01:23   #29
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What about quantum bits (1 and 0 at the same time).
quantom bits work on them being in 2 places at a time moving in opposite directions.

The probem is once we observe them to use what its saying 1 or 0 or 10 they chose where they want to be and so stop functioning.
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Old 1st Feb 2011, 02:07   #30
~>Dg<~
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ok what films we been watching then

pi or some other similar type film ?

when ever anything like this appears they do 10101010 or whatever as its simple.

no it wouldnt be possible as it would of been done. we cant even map a brain nevermind the whole universe.

to break down a number to get some kind of code you would need somekind of finished number end product. which the universe never ends guess it would be reoccurring then

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