2008 Monaco GP - Race 6/18

[Owenb]

You cannot possibly blame Hamilton for that.

I am not blaming anyone, just pointing out that it wasn't an Senna-esque, or whatever you want to call it, type performance and didn't need to be. It was a straight forward win, or as straight forward as a win in Monaco on a drying track can be, once the safety car came out.

The michelin tyres where within the rules until they re-wrote the rules. Once they re-wrote them the teams changed tyres. They where not illegal until clarification was sought on the way the tyre moved. Then they where outlawed.

The tyres were fine, but Williams used them in a way that made the tyres illegal or at the very least going against the spirit of the rules.

The floor last year is again a team pushing the boundaries. It passed the test, it wasn't hidden but the test didn't do it job. Deemed illegal, was banned, happens all the time.
The only teams to be really caught for active cheating in the last ~10 years were BAR/Honda and Mclaren for spying.

 

[MagicBoy]

Again though, legal when raced. The fan was used to cool the engine, honest!

My point exactly. Legal for one race which it won first time out at a canter. The rules were then "clarified" and it became illegal.

 

[dannyjo22]

The only teams to be really caught for active cheating in the last ~10 years were BAR/Honda and Mclaren for spying.

Honda fell under the exact same reasoning you have explained. The clarification of how they weighed the car was made after honda got pulled up.

Honda actually proved at no point did their car go under weight. Honda where banned for having the ability to cheat, it was never proved they cheated or that they ran under weight at any time.

Never before had anyone seen a car pumped dry like they did the honda, no one in the paddock had seen it done. They didnt do it to the other teams they checked only honda. Someone had it in for them.

 

[JRS]

My point exactly. Legal for one race which it won first time out at a canter. The rules were then "clarified" and it became illegal.

I'll bow to anyone with greater knowledge, but purely on a starts:wins ratio that must make it the most successful GP car of all time?

 

[dannyjo22]

The only teams to be really caught for active cheating in the last ~10 years were BAR/Honda and Mclaren for spying.

Thought of another, Toyota with a history of motorsport cheating.

Zero punishment. Someone got a lifetimes supply of lexus's for the family with that one

 

[Alibaba99]

The tyres were fine, but Williams used them in a way that made the tyres illegal or at the very least going against the spirit of the rules.

The floor last year is again a team pushing the boundaries. It passed the test, it wasn't hidden but the test didn't do it job. Deemed illegal, was banned, happens all the time.
The only teams to be really caught for active cheating in the last ~10 years were BAR/Honda and Mclaren for spying.

The tyre rules were simple, it simply specified the maximum tread width at the start of the race, nothing else. It was Bridgestone that decided that this also meant at the end of the race as well and designed their tyres differently. What really rankled though was the fact that Ferrari/Bridgestone waited 18months before challenging the legallity despite the use of the tyres being open and visible to all.

Toyota were caught properly cheating (paying engineers to come over and bringing data with them) yet nothing came of it. Renault were also caught cheating at the end of last season (and in possession of far more information and with it more widely distributed) yet nothing came of that as well.

 

[Peg]

The tyre rules were simple, it simply specified the maximum tread width at the start of the race, nothing else. It was Bridgestone that decided that this also meant at the end of the race as well and designed their tyres differently. What really rankled though was the fact that Ferrari/Bridgestone waited 18months before challenging the legallity despite the use of the tyres being open and visible to all.

Toyota were caught properly cheating (paying engineers to come over and bringing data with them) yet nothing came of it. Renault were also caught cheating at the end of last season (and in possession of far more information and with it more widely distributed) yet nothing came of that as well.

When someone leaves a team for another team then information is bound to be passed on as well. Renault will probably have even more knowledge of Maclaren this year now Alonso has switched teams. The difference last year with Maclaren was that no one had changed team. They were getting there info from someone still at Ferrari.

 

[sunama]

Mansell would have creamed the pair of them even at 150 stone if he hadn't had his orders to keep the hell away.

I think we've had this argument before.

Mansell may well have been told to stay out of the Hill vs MS fight, but there is absolutely no way that he or any competitive driver would be prepared to drop 1s/lap and look like a mug.

To give you an idea of just how competitive Mansell is - in 1992, Mansell had won the title with many races to spare. He really was in a different league. Before the race (I forget which one it was), he decided that he would let Patrese win, if they were running 1 and 2. Rather than follow Patrese for the entire race, he sped off into the distance, just to show the world and Patrese who the "boss" is. Mid race, he then brought the car to a complete halt. Patrese then went past and Mansell then continued for the rest of the race behind Patrese.

It is not in Mansell's make-up to get dropped, on purpose, by 1s/lap.

Earlier that same year, when Mansell made a guest appearance at France, Mansell was once again destroyed for pace by MS and Hill.

In 1994 and 1995, I dont know what happened, but Mansell was not the same driver that he was in the preceding years. Most "experts" at the time, put this down to a lack of fitness, as he was great in qualifying, but in the race, he was slow - almost as if he was getting tired after a few laps of racing.

In 1995 of course, he famously got dropped by McLaren. If he was as good in 1995, as he was in 1992/3, then there is absolutely no way that McLaren wouldve dropped him.

 

[MagicBoy]

I'll bow to anyone with greater knowledge, but purely on a starts:wins ratio that must make it the most successful GP car of all time?

Spose it depends how you judge - it was the BT46B - a B version of the usual BT46 for the 1978 season. The BT46 did win a race toward the end of the season, but it was a fluke IIRC. The ground-effect Lotus 79 was class of the field for the rest of the season.

 

[FrankJH]

.
The only teams to be really caught for active cheating in the last ~10 years were BAR/Honda and Mclaren for spying.

And that was a load of BS to start with , the FIA struck again (in Ferrari's favour)

 

[JRS]

And that was a load of BS to start with , the FIA struck again (in Ferrari's favour)

Well, if McLaren didn't want to get caught they should have hired cleverer employees.

Next time they're hiring, they'll know that on the recruitment advert they'll need to add the caveat "Must have higher IQ than a small potato".

 

[dannyjo22]

No one can yet give me an answer as to why Pedro hasn't been dismissed. As a contractor not an employee who had been at the very least communicating with another team which has been proved. Why the hell wasn't he sacked. He ended up costing the organisation millions.

What does he know that makes it worth maccas while to keep him employed?

The fact they kept him in a job tells me all I need to know about how far and how deep maccas cheating went.

 

[FrankJH]

Well, if McLaren didn't want to get caught they should have hired cleverer employees.

Next time they're hiring, they'll know that on the recruitment advert they'll need to add the caveat "Must have higher IQ than a small potato".

I agree with what you are saying - but its also Ferrari effectively GIVING McLaren the information, not McLaren stealing it

Should be internal matter for Ferrari and thats it

 

[JRS]

No one can yet give me an answer as to why Pedro hasn't been dismissed.

Probably because he didn't fall out with The Messiah™....

What does he know that makes it worth maccas while to keep him employed?

The fact they kept him in a job tells me all I need to know about how far and how deep maccas cheating went.

Well, there are two ways of looking at it.

1) The same way Stepney was threatening to reveal where all the bodies were buried in Ferrari's case, maybe PDLR knows rather too much about something at McLaren.
2) PDLR wasn't actually involved in any cheating at all, was set up by Mysterious Forces™ and deserves to keep his job.

 

[JRS]

I agree with what you are saying - but its also Ferrari effectively GIVING McLaren the information, not McLaren stealing it

I think the FIA's perspective on this was that McLaren shouldn't have accepted the data. But come on - of course they're going to accept it! You've just been handed operational data for your main rival, it would be a criminal level of stupidity to say "No thanks, we're now going to turn you in".

Where they went wrong is that they didn't cover their tracks very well....actually, they didn't cover them at all. On that basis, they deserve everything they got.

 

[sunama]

Well, Ron Denis claimed that he didnt know. However, he would have to be a total idiot not to know.

The whole point of cheating to gain an advantage is to work as a team and move forward as a team. I think the decision to attain Ferrari technical data came from the top.

However, in saying that. I'm sure that other teams also cheat in a similar way. The only difference here was that they got caught red handed and then compounded it by admitting more than they needed to.

I'm still shocked that Ron Denis would get so emotional, so as to report his own team to the FIA in a knee jerk reaction to the argument he had with Alonso.

In any case, its all in the past now and I hope that McLaren have learnt their lesson (ie. never admit to anything unless it can be proved and that the only prize for being honest is a US$100M fine).

 

[dannyjo22]

Well, there are two ways of looking at it.

1) The same way Stepney was threatening to reveal where all the bodies were buried in Ferrari's case, maybe PDLR knows rather too much about something at McLaren.
2) PDLR wasn't actually involved in any cheating at all, was set up by Mysterious Forces™ and deserves to keep his job.

I'm pretty sure i'm going with option 1

I wonder if [email protected] still works for him, I bet his account is moderated by ocuk

 

[JRS]

I'm still shocked that Ron Denis would get so emotional, so as to report his own team to the FIA in a knee jerk reaction to the argument he had with Alonso.

The guy was having a rough year. McLaren's last title was in 1999, he'd seen his drivers fall out on a scale not seen in F1 for a little while, he thought he'd weathered the SpyGate affair and then Alonso dropped the bombshell. If he hadn't gone to the FIA at that point, it would only have been worse when Alonso inevitably lit the touchpaper.

 

[sunama]

The guy was having a rough year. McLaren's last title was in 1999, he'd seen his drivers fall out on a scale not seen in F1 for a little while, he thought he'd weathered the SpyGate affair and then Alonso dropped the bombshell.

His drivers, I think at that stage were 1 and 2 in the WDC. It wasnt as if they were fighting a tough battle with Ferrari, like this year for example. At that point in time (I think it was Hungary), McLaren had all titles in the bag. They werent really under pressure.

After the Prost/Senna fall out, Ron Denis should be experienced in dealing with drivers who dont get along. Indeed, it is a sign of a good manager who can get the best out of his employees, even when their personalities clash. Only a bad manager sacks a high performing employee, as it is the easy way out. An even worse manager involves emotions in his professional decisions.

If he hadn't gone to the FIA at that point, it would only have been worse when Alonso inevitably lit the touchpaper.

When Alonso made that threat, he had just got out of his car, after getting pole. He was fully pumped up. He made an idle threat. It wasnt as if Alonso sat down and wrote a carefully worded letter to Ron Denis making the threat. It was a comment made in the spur of the moment.

Ron Denis, for all his years, should've had enough acumen to calm the situation down and read his employee (Alonso), realising that he was just fired up after the qualifying session and what was being said was in the heat of the moment. Ron Denis shouldve thought about his actions before "shopping" his own team as US$100M is a heck of a lot of money.

Even though I'm younger than Denis, I would've sat down with my closest employees/advisers/solicitors and discussed before hand, what the repercusions wouldve been had I "shopped" the team. The guy made an emotional, spare of the moment decision.

In our places of work, we all say things to our colleagues and managers that we later regret. Its all part of work-life. If our managers all decided to sack people and run to the authorities on every little word said in anger, then many people would get sacked and companies would get shut down, due to bad management decisions.

 

[JRS]

His drivers, I think at that stage were 1 and 2 in the WDC. It wasnt as if they were fighting a tough battle with Ferrari, like this year for example. At that point in time (I think it was Hungary), McLaren had all titles in the bag. They werent really under pressure.

Given Kimi's second half of the season, and the tracks that were left to race on, they most certainly were under pressure. Not massive pressure, but they were being chased down for the drivers title and they knew it. They couldn't focus all effort on one driver, as there would be no justification for choosing one over the other and it would have made an already nuclear-hot situation even worse.

After the Prost/Senna fall out, Ron Denis should be experienced in dealing with drivers who dont get along. Indeed, it is a sign of a good manager who can get the best out of his employees, even when their personalities clash.

Which he did. I seem to recall both drivers winning an awful lot that year, and only losing out on the title by 1 point.

Only a bad manager sacks a high performing employee, as it is the easy way out. An even worse manager involves emotions in his professional decisions.

Alonso was looking for a way out of that team anyway. Maybe he was promised Number 1 status, maybe he only thought he was getting it. But whichever it was, he was not the favoured driver in that team. And as a two-time champion, he thought he should be. Renault, in his eyes, at least treat him like a champion. McLaren just treated him like a driver.

When Alonso made that threat, he had just got out of his car, after getting pole. He was fully pumped up. He made an idle threat. It wasnt as if Alonso sat down and wrote a carefully worded letter to Ron Denis making the threat. It was a comment made in the spur of the moment.

You reckon Ron could take that chance, after what had happened between McLaren, Ferrari and the FIA earlier in the season?

Ron Denis, for all his years, should've had enough acumen to calm the situation down and read his employee (Alonso), realising that he was just fired up after the qualifying session and what was being said was in the heat of the moment. Ron Denis shouldve thought about his actions before "shopping" his own team as US$100M is a heck of a lot of money.

Possibly.

Even though I'm younger than Denis, I would've sat down with my closest employees/advisers/solicitors and discussed before hand, what the repercusions wouldve been had I "shopped" the team. The guy made an emotional, spare of the moment decision.

Ain't hindsight grand?