2008 Monaco GP - Race 6/18
- Thread starter rpstewart
- Start date
I know its a bit off course, but I think actual Monaco talk stopped about 5 pages ago.
Silverstone has had its plans for a new pit and padock complex aproved. A New building will be built between Club and Abbey, making the Abbey chicane the first corner of the GP circuit and Club the last.
Trouble is, anyone who has been to silverstone will know that Vale, round Club and up to Abbey is by far the best embankment (i.e. cheap general admission tickets) viewing spot. With the new pits here, this will all be filled with grandstands and inaccessable to anyone without Gold and Silver Plus tickets. Basically leaving you with the standing spots infront of the grandstands on Hangar Straight and Becketts left for us GA poor folk.
The have either got to make some grandstands Bronze accessable, or make the GA tickets a lot cheaper. £130 to have access to 1/4 of the track.... no thanks!
Silverstone has had its plans for a new pit and padock complex aproved. A New building will be built between Club and Abbey, making the Abbey chicane the first corner of the GP circuit and Club the last.
Trouble is, anyone who has been to silverstone will know that Vale, round Club and up to Abbey is by far the best embankment (i.e. cheap general admission tickets) viewing spot. With the new pits here, this will all be filled with grandstands and inaccessable to anyone without Gold and Silver Plus tickets. Basically leaving you with the standing spots infront of the grandstands on Hangar Straight and Becketts left for us GA poor folk.
The have either got to make some grandstands Bronze accessable, or make the GA tickets a lot cheaper. £130 to have access to 1/4 of the track.... no thanks!
Sure they could, but the cost of improving Silverstone is going to be far less than a total revamp of Brands or Donnington. And its already taken god knows how long to get any kind of approval or funding for Silverstone.
The redevelopments are linked to a science park and allsorts at Silverstone, which is linked to the factories etc that are nearby. Donnington and Brands dont have this as much.
Brands also has more than enough issues with noise these days. They can only use the full GP loop for 5 meetings a year I think, and I suspect that the locals may complain abit about more about F1 cars compared to the GTs and Touring Cars that are the current problems.
Donnington has severe issues with access and would require massive improvements to run off areas and pitlane facilities to even bring it close to current F1 requirements.
Erm. He wasnt talking to Alonso, from the Hungarian GP onwards. Everything Alonso did from that point onwards was inspite of a bad team boss, not because of him. The only good decisions Denis made was hiring Alonso and Hamilton in the first instance. His management of Alonso is a text book example of how not to manage.
And as a team boss, its his responsibility to do the best for the team. If this means that he needs to persuade a top performing driver to stay by manipulating his mind, then so be it. Denis is more than twice the age of Alonso and should have the ability to twist a 25yr old driver around his little finger, if he chooses to. Instead, he acted like a spoilt brat, in response to Alonso's similar attitude.
He should use his experience and guage the situation. For the good of the team, he shouldve given Alonso a few minutes to calm down, then confronted him in his motor home. Thats where he has to behave almost father like, and treat Alonso like a child who isnt eating his dinner.
Ain't hindsight grand?
Its not about hindsight. Ron acted on an impulse reaction. He had just had the argument and then went and phoned up the FIA. Nothing good comes when you act on decisions you have made in the heat of the moment. For all Ron's experience, I'm sure he knows this.
But like I said, what is done is done now, and McLaren, F1 and Denis just have to get on with life. Their driver is leading the title race, so its not all bad for McLaren.
Is that for definite? I remember seeing that proposal a while ago but I thought the current plan was a revamp of the current pit complex.
EDIT: Looking at the Silverstone website it would appear that the pits are moving. I suppose there's some merit in hooning out of Club onto the start/finish straight but that puts the infield section around Luffield at the start of the lap which I'm not so sure about. There's a mention of reprofiling Abbey as well, I suppose it's too much to hope for a return to old left flick and turning Bridge back into a challenge though.
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Well, if that's the case then Alonso did a grand job. In a team which, by your reckoning, was set against him he scored 41 points in the final races if we count Hungary. Ron's golden boy only got 39.
Sure, he might not have been speaking to Ron by that point in the season. But it's not as if he needed to be on speaking terms with a very senior manager. As long as his race engineer and a few of the mechanics were still on his side then he could carry on scoring points and challenging for the title.
Was getting Alonso to stay in the best interests of the team?
Take the Senna-Prost era. The pair won 15 from 16 in '88 while in a (by the end of the year) edgy relationship. In '89, with the battle lines well and truly drawn that dropped to 10 from 16. Alright, so their fighting was only one part of that decline (Mansell joining Ferrari helped their challenge, Williams getting the Renault motor helped them). But it can't have helped.
Sure, Ron could have made the attempt at saving the doomed relationship between McLaren and Alonso. But what good would it have done? Preserve a driver partnership that would only lead to an all-out war in '08?
Frankly, that $100m sounds like a bargain in comparison....
As for losing the constructors title over it - McLaren scored 203 points, taking into account the loss of points for the Hungary shenanigans (which we ought to given that it was not related to Spygate). Ferrari scored 204. Now, I'm just a simple CAD/CAM engineer but I can do arithmetic and that don't add up to a McLaren win to me!
Maybe so. But I'd dispute what seems to be your POV that the outcome of it all was the worst case scenario.
Indeed. And he's heading to Canada, which we know he can win provided the car is up to it (I'm not going to go there with the luck argument. It'll only wind you all up).
Yep. He did a fantastic job to score so many points while working under depressing working conditions.
If keeping your team harmonious is your priority, then no. However, if scoring as many points as possible is your priority, then having Alonso is a great boost. In the process you will probably win the Constructors title, too. Something that McLaren are unlikely to do this year, even if Hamilton does win the WDC. The Ferrari pair are too strong.
In the middle of last season, Denis did say that we are here to win races, not to play happy families. Obviously, he understood at that time, that winning is the most important thing in F1. Unfortunately, after he let emotions get in the way, he thought otherwise.
I would prefer to win the WDC and WCC, even if it means war. Remember, points win you prizes and money. For 2008, they lost Alonso, points, prizes and therefore, money.
Well, Hamilton and Alonso finished in joint 2nd and outscored the Ferrari duo. Obviously, the FIA will have intervened at any stage, to come to the assistance of Ferrari. Last year, the real constuctors champs were McLaren; Ferrari only won it off the track, which sucks. But, like I said, whats done is done.
Now has someone started the Canadian GP thread?
The plans are available on the Council website, ill see If i can find them again.
The reprofiling of abbey, atleast from the plans, wont affect the GP circuit at all. It will remain the same. What will change is the hairpin that is there for the shorter curcuit. ...... Ill draw a picture, ill brb.
EDIT: back.
right, on the left is Abbey now, on the right, what ive interpreted from the plans. In the current config, the short curcuit (green) comes down towards abbey, goes beyond the chicane, hairpins round and then follows the older track down towards bridge. The new proposal on the right, the short circuit doesnt go down to the hairpin, but instead takes a 90 degree right turn to join the chicane after the furst part, then takes the second part and then off to bridge. Basically, the short circuit will have its hairpin cut off to form 2 90 degree rights instead. this is, as far as I can tell, to allow the space where the hairpin is now to be occupied by a pitlane exit and/or pit and padock complex, etc.
The plans also show that Club may get a reprofiling as there will be a tunnel under the first left hand bit/vale that will allow lorries etc into the infield. Seen as the track dips quite a bit there, id expect they will raise it up, and possibly reprofile it at the same time.
Hope this makes sence?
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Alonso acted like a spoiled brat last season - he was beaten by a better driver with less experience, no knowledge of most of the tracks, in the same car
If he cant beat a newcomer fair and square he doesnt deserve to have the No1 status within the team that he demanded (like a little child)
I sincerely hope he fades into midfield mediocrity with the Renault team
If he cant beat a newcomer fair and square he doesnt deserve to have the No1 status within the team that he demanded (like a little child)
I sincerely hope he fades into midfield mediocrity with the Renault team
Caporegime
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Apart from the fact Alonso basically gave Mclaren and the Messiah the setups to use which made them fast in the first place. Alonso has already proven he is a better driver then the Messiah. From his days at Minardi to making Renault double world champions. He had to earn his way through the ranks and has nothing to prove as he has already done it. Unlike Hamilton who has been bred into racing and has had it given to him on a plate with a seat at Mclaren. I would really like to see what would happen if Hamilton was in a BMW, Renault or Red Bull seat.
Hamilton has indeed had a fantastic education. In fact, he even had a World Champion to learn from in his first year at McLaren.
You mustnt forget also, that Alonso had moved to a brand new team that was not moulded around him (a luxury that Schummi would've had in the past). This adaptation took him a little time, but after he adapted, he was able to outscore Hamilton (2nd half of season).
Lest we forget that Hamilton isnt exactly what I would call an ordinary rookie.
This year, we are seeing Alonso blow a (normal) rookie (Piquet), away.
You mustnt forget also, that Alonso had moved to a brand new team that was not moulded around him (a luxury that Schummi would've had in the past). This adaptation took him a little time, but after he adapted, he was able to outscore Hamilton (2nd half of season).
Lest we forget that Hamilton isnt exactly what I would call an ordinary rookie.
This year, we are seeing Alonso blow a (normal) rookie (Piquet), away.
Best case scenario (from Alonso's point of view) he gets in a new team - basically familar with the car (f1 cars arent THAT different) , knowing all the tracks and having raced wnough times to know what to expect.
He shouldnt have even been threatened by a rookie - even if Hamilton had been a McLaren employee in previous series.
HE got toasted, and because he knew it he threw his toys out of the pram
The only thing he earned by winning the previous two WDC's is the actual seat - then as it should , the slate was wiped clean for both drivers.
The only reason Alonso outscored him in the 2nd half of the season was because of the team problems in the last two races (tyres in one, and engine/ignition in Brazil)
right, on the left is Abbey now, on the right, what ive interpreted from the plans. In the current config, the short curcuit (green) comes down towards abbey, goes beyond the chicane, hairpins round and then follows the older track down towards bridge. The new proposal on the right, the short circuit doesnt go down to the hairpin, but instead takes a 90 degree right turn to join the chicane after the furst part, then takes the second part and then off to bridge. Basically, the short circuit will have its hairpin cut off to form 2 90 degree rights instead. this is, as far as I can tell, to allow the space where the hairpin is now to be occupied by a pitlane exit and/or pit and padock complex, etc.
The plans also show that Club may get a reprofiling as there will be a tunnel under the first left hand bit/vale that will allow lorries etc into the infield. Seen as the track dips quite a bit there, id expect they will raise it up, and possibly reprofile it at the same time.
Hope this makes sence?
Yeah, there isn't a huge amount of room between Club and Abbey so removing what is in fact the original line of Abbey Curve makes a fair bit of sense. Dunno what they're going to do for the historic races, that bit of tarmac was retained to allow the chicane to be bypassed for racing where it was a) not needed and b) would cause more problems than it solved.
EDIT: Just had a quick looke on Google Earth there and yeah, there needs to be a fair bit of shuffling around of the International Circuit to fit everything in. When I looked last night the plans had disappeared off the South Northamptonshire Council website* which is a bit of a shame because I'd be interested to see where they planned pit entrance and exit are. I'd guess a straight on at Vale would be the obvious in but an exit into the second half of the Abbey chicane looks a bit on the tight side.
* Why is the planning application with South Northants when the building work is going to be in Buckinghamshire??? The county boundary runs from Bridge to the middle of Becketts.
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Soldato
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From that post it looks like you'll rubbish Alonso regardless of any achievements, in the mean time you're basking in the sunshine that glows from Hamilton's ass...
I assume you actually are an F1 driver? Your comment about the cars not being that different to drive only holds water if you are.
This is speculation not factual.
IMO the very fact Hamilton's tyre exploded at Turkey in 2007 and Alonso's didn't proves that LH was already using wildly different car setups to Alonso by that early stage of the season.
Also Silverstone last year was quite a bad race for LH. He was too busy doing press interviews in the warm up week to finish his car setup. As a result he finished 3rd and IIRC crossed the finish line a long long time after Alonso did in 2nd.
Remember car setups are pretty much produced on computer simulators these days. It is then just the drivers/engineers who hone them to their preferences, weather conditions and strategies.
When Alonso made the "I've made this team 0.6sec faster per lap" remark he was IMO referring to development direction (because yes he is good at that) and perhaps also the Spygate slightly.
Hamilton, from an outsider's perspective, does seem to drive the car awfully hard (far harder than is sensible on occasion). I guess the team run a setup that compensates for it, or allows him to do it and retain some semblance of car control. But it's obviously hard on the tyres at certain places - maybe too hard, with cases in point being Turkey '07 (with the tyre blowout) and Turkey '08 (with the three-stop strategy seemingly to avoid a repeat performance).
Actually, given his driving style I bet he'd suit the Ferrari down to the ground. He'd be able to get the heat into the tyres early, and the car is a bit kinder to them on long runs. He could stiffen the suspension right up to get it as 'pointy' as he likes.
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sunama said:
Oh come on, sunama! The FIA didn't hand that title to Ferrari - McLaren did.
Yes, the McLaren drivers outscored the Ferrari pairing. But that's not the same as beating them in the constructors title and all of us here know that. Spygate cost them 203 points. That didn't lose them the title - the title would still have been lost with 203 points. What cost the rest of the points was....
*drum roll*
....Hamilton.
Allow me to refresh your memories:
It's Q3. McLaren's strategy requires that Alonso be ahead on the track for it to all sync up nicely. Hamilton, practically being champion-elect at this stage, goes out ahead. Alonso, in retribution, holds Hamilton up when they go in for their final tyre sets and prevents him from setting a final quick time. And it all blows up. Alonso claims he was asking a question about the tyres. McLaren say the delay wasn't actually his fault, and Hamilton had disobeyed orders to let him by earlier in the session. Ron is apoplectic.
Alonso threatens to send copies of e-mails to Mad Max that incriminate McLaren. Ron pre-empts this by telling Max about the threat, but insists that there is nothing incriminating in them and that the threat is an empty one. His exact words were, I believe, "There’s no information, there’s nothing to come out; I can assure you that if there was something, Max, I would have told you.”
That threat was made on the morning of the race, by the way. Not immediately post-qually as you said earlier.
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They arent that different (not like for an example a sportscar race)
Yes different teams have the use of differing brake compounds and aero tweaks, but Renault share their engine, Ferrari do, Toyota do and Hondo did until recently
Alonso was there at the right time with the right engine and the team (being run by Briatore , is always geared around one main driver.
Same driver in a different team where he gets equal treatment........
Hamilton is a great driver, he is human and does make mistakes and for a few rounds he has struggled this year, however I am glad he has found his form again - I also congratulated Sutil on my first post because he did a fantastic job, so I give credit where its due - I just dont think Alonso is that great
Actually Spygate DID cost them more than that (from a points pov) simply because the last two races where fubar'd from McLaren's side - and mainly due to the additional pressure put on the team by the whole Spygate affaiir
Otherwise you might as well say it was quality control in the engine that cost them everything due to the problem with HAmilton's engine in Brazil costing him the WDC, several places and a huge amount of time during the race