Islamic protest march planned for Wootton Basset

The fact that they're Muslims means nothing. I have made no distinction on that fact, so stop pulling things out of your behind. If such a large number of people were acting in the same way but under a different religion it would make no difference, the reaction would be the same. Muslims are just the current "trend" for this kind of conflict at the current time. Other people from different religions have done similar things in history and been met with the same resistance.

When? These kind of pre-emptive wars are new thing.

So if you had the chance to help make one persons life better, even if the general situation would remain unchanged, you wouldn't help them? You think the work of charities are pointless then I guess? Such a nice bloke.

What, you think our piecemeal and pathetic 'charity' work in Zimbabwe is acheiving anything? And I never said I was against charities, but I think that's slightly different to invading someone and killing a bunch of people to supposedly help them.

What if the conflict in other countries eventually perpetuates and ends up spilling over into your country? Will you care then? The world is a lot smaller than it use to be and very complex in the way it operates. Conflicts in far away countries have a global effect, as well as a local one.

This is garbage. Not to mention the 7/7 bombings were because of Iraq.

Watched Ross Kemp? He interviews a number of Afghan civilians and they all have the same opinion that they want ISAF forces to stay and help get rid of the Taliban. They don't like the war, granted, but they can't win it on their own.

Maybe you should watch a few other videos, one involving hundreds of Afghans out in protest against the U.S. and their military presence after a bomb had 'accidentally' killed a couple of people.
 
Maybe you should watch a few other videos, one involving hundreds of Afghans out in protest against the U.S. and their military presence after a bomb had 'accidentally' killed a couple of people.

What about the suicide bombings that kill a lot of people(There was even one this week)? They don't care about being killed by their own then I guess? Just so long as the one doing the killing isn't white s'all good.

Edit: BB missed off half of it :s

When? These kind of pre-emptive wars are new thing.

We weren't in Iraq or Afghanistan before 9/11 were we?

What, you think our piecemeal and pathetic 'charity' work in Zimbabwe is acheiving anything?
Your really going to sit there and say doing nothing is better than trying to help those in need? Fair enough :/ Speak to some of the people who have been over there about how many people they have helped and the gratitude they have received. I'll be sure to let you bleed out if I ever see you dieing in the street.
 
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What about the suicide bombings that kill a lot of people(There was even one this week)? They don't care about being killed by their own then I guess? Just so long as the one doing the killing isn't white s'all good.

Well it was partly the way in which we've retardedly handled these wars that's triggered and prolonged a lot of this violence.

It's no good now, after wading into two conflicts along with "Mission Accomplished" retard George W. Bush, looking around at the total mess we're in and just blaming it all on the insurgents.

Yes, the Taliban kill their own people. It's not a revelation. That doesn't excuse what we've started and what we've done and now can't seem to finish. The whole thing is a depressing disaster and all we have to show for it is a load of hatred.

Nevermind the fact that the wars were unjustly waged, we couldn't even conduct them properly.
 
Maybe you should watch a few other videos, one involving hundreds of Afghans out in protest against the U.S. and their military presence after a bomb had 'accidentally' killed a couple of people.

Maybe you should watch the videos of hundreds of Afghans being killed by other Afghans then.

and hundreds of unrelated Afghans running round covered in blood screaming over their loved ones who now resemble a fine paste.
 
Maybe you should watch the videos of hundreds of Afghans being killed by other Afghans then.

and hundreds of unrelated Afghans running round covered in blood screaming over their loved ones who now resemble a fine paste.

I never said the Taliban don't kill people. That doesn't mean our presence there is welcomed.

We weren't in Iraq or Afghanistan before 9/11 were we?

I wasn't aware Iraq was connected to 9/11
 
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[..] If you would explain how a moderate (less extreme) muslim is going to succeed at terrorism, when moderates are by definition not attempting such a thing in the first place.
[..]

Why should I back up a claim that you've posted? If you believe it, you explain why. If you don't believe it, why are you posting it?

you seem to be saying that the British Muslim Council only denounce such acts because it interferes with their own plans for world dominance.

If you read "partly" as "only", despite the two words having very different meanings, and if you believe that the Muslim Council of Great Britain is intending to rule the world itself, as some sort of global oligarchy. Neither of which are true for me.
 
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So do all religions. Big deal.

Do you think that all religions are secretly plotting to take over the world?

Serious question, as that is what was being talked about in the post you replied to. That context is very important to the meaning of the posts.
 
Why should I back up a claim that you've posted? If you believe it, you explain why. If you don't believe it, why are you posting it?

You made the reference to moderate muslims being the main threat, not me. What are they more likely to succeed at then?. It seems you make veiled reference to some islamophobic agenda. You are now not willing to defend your position.



If you read "partly" as "only", despite the two words having very different meanings, and if you believe that the Muslim Council of Great Britain is intending to rule the world itself, as some sort of global oligarchy. Neither of which are true for me.

So you saying that and I quote: "So what they're objecting to is not attempts to conquer the world for Islam, but what they consider to be counter-productive attempts to conquer the world for Islam." is not an accusation that the BMC are attempting to conquer the world for Islam but by more moderate means.:rolleyes: Attempting to deflect me away with irrelevencies in quotations is not going to work. Neither is attributing your statements as mine, trying to reverse the argument instead of explaining yours is pointless.

I do not think you have the faintest idea what you are talking about. If you did you would defend what seems to me to be an islamophobic agenda.
 
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[..]
Your statement above, I quote; "I consider less extreme Muslims to be more of a threat, because they're far more likely to succeed." suggests in plain english that you fear the threat posed by the moderate muslim population. If you would explain your position more clearly for us poor illiterates I would appreciate it. :D
[..]

No problem.

First off, I'm not convinced that "moderate" and "Muslim" really fit together. Approval of the use of torture to enforce obedience is not exactly moderate in my opinion, and that is required in Islam. If you don't believe me, then good luck finding a Muslim who will directly oppose an explicit command from their god. I had my eyes opened by a very tolerant, charming, "moderate" Muslim when they casually expressed their enthusiastic advocacy of torturing people to death for having sex outside of marriage. I'd been fed the standard line we're all fed, namely that virtually every Muslim is nothing at all like that and is religiously opposed to all violence (despite the crowds of them who turn up to violently object to pretty much anything and threaten to kill people, but just ignore them). So I initially thought her position was an aberration, that she was a whackjob extremist who covered it up very well. After a few weeks of reading Islamic sources and failing to find any Muslim who unequivocally opposed torturing people for various trivial things (like having sex outside of marriage), I realised that the standard line that we're all fed is wrong.

But even if I was to ignore all that and pretend that the standard line is true (which it isn't), my point still stands:

Less extreme Muslims are much more likely to succeed in making the UK more Islamic, eventually making it an Islamic theocracy, than extremist Muslims are to succeed in doing so. Spewing hatred and murdering anyone unlucky enough to be in range at the time results in very widespread determined opposition. As I said before:
[..] it is met with determined opposition. It only works on a very small scale (e.g. a protection racket extorting money from local businesses) or a very large scale (e.g. major attacks daily, and even that didn't work when it was tried in WW2).
A "moderate" approach doesn't result in such opposition, so it is much more likely to succeed. It's a timescale of decades, but it has a far greater chance of success.

In a theocracy, it is rarely moderates who wield power because it's rarely moderates who seek power.

So "moderate" Muslims are more of a threat partly because they're far, far more likely to succeed in making the UK continually more Islamic until it becomes an Islamic theocracy and partly because the "moderates" would (unintentionally) be providing a route to power to the extremists that the extremists would not be able to get by themselves.
 
You made the reference to moderate muslims being the main threat, not me. What are they more likely to succeed at then?. It seems you make veiled reference to some islamophobic agenda. You are now not willing to defend your position.

You're making stuff up (specifically in that case the wholly untrue claim that I said moderate Muslims were more likely to succeed in terrorism) and claiming it's my position. I'm not willing to defend that. You're also babbling the ever so useful word 'Islamophobia', presumably because it's easier to try to silence someone by saying they are irrationally prejudiced than it is to counter their line of argument.

Attempting to deflect me away with irrelevencies in quotations is not going to work.

Are you actually arguing that the difference in meaning between "partly" and "only" is irrelevant? You appear to be doing so, but that would be silly.

At the moment, I'm thinking that you've dead set on making things up and pretending your creations are my position and that you consider any clarification I write as an irrelevancy.

I do not think you have the faintest idea what you are talking about. If you did you would defend what seems to me to be an islamophobic agenda.

Once again: I am under no obligation to defend things that you make up. They are yours, not mine.
 
No problem.

First off, I'm not convinced that "moderate" and "Muslim" really fit together. Approval of the use of torture to enforce obedience is not exactly moderate in my opinion, and that is required in Islam. If you don't believe me, then good luck finding a Muslim who will directly oppose an explicit command from their god. I had my eyes opened by a very tolerant, charming, "moderate" Muslim when they casually expressed their enthusiastic advocacy of torturing people to death for having sex outside of marriage. I'd been fed the standard line we're all fed, namely that virtually every Muslim is nothing at all like that and is religiously opposed to all violence (despite the crowds of them who turn up to violently object to pretty much anything and threaten to kill people, but just ignore them). So I initially thought her position was an aberration, that she was a whackjob extremist who covered it up very well. After a few weeks of reading Islamic sources and failing to find any Muslim who unequivocally opposed torturing people for various trivial things (like having sex outside of marriage), I realised that the standard line that we're all fed is wrong.

But even if I was to ignore all that and pretend that the standard line is true (which it isn't), my point still stands:

Less extreme Muslims are much more likely to succeed in making the UK more Islamic, eventually making it an Islamic theocracy, than extremist Muslims are to succeed in doing so. Spewing hatred and murdering anyone unlucky enough to be in range at the time results in very widespread determined opposition. As I said before: A "moderate" approach doesn't result in such opposition, so it is much more likely to succeed. It's a timescale of decades, but it has a far greater chance of success.

In a theocracy, it is rarely moderates who wield power because it's rarely moderates who seek power.

So "moderate" Muslims are more of a threat partly because they're far, far more likely to succeed in making the UK continually more Islamic until it becomes an Islamic theocracy and partly because the "moderates" would (unintentionally) be providing a route to power to the extremists that the extremists would not be able to get by themselves.


This sounds like standard Islamophobic doctrine. Within Islam the standards they set themselves are for themselves the Quran plainly state the beliefs of Christianity and Judaism are to be protected. Modern Moderate belief doesn't advocate violence against women or anyone in any form. None of my friends who are muslims believe as your friend does. You are making a statement that All Muslims as a group are subject to their religion in a way that has its fallacious basis in extremist and medieval interpretation of the Quran. For the vast majority this is not the case.

You try to disguise an racist view of Islam with words like "unintentional", and portray yourself as a moderate, which I do not think you are.

You are entitled to your view, as is everyone, but at least be honest about it.
 
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Please prove we're anywhere near becoming an Islamic theocracy in the UK? Less than what, 5% of the population is Muslim, which is debatable since nobody actually interviewed them individually about it. That pretty much rules out the "outbreeding" idea, unless you think the other 95% of the population will die out without any offspring.

Then there's the ridiculous notion that a restrictive culture is going to magically spread to non-believers... er, last time I checked most people on here are vehemently against the idea of any religion or god whatsoever. They also can't countenance, among other things, becoming teetotal or *gasp* abstaining from sex for any significant period of time.

So going by that, I don't expect any serious changes to the population's beliefs for a long time yet. This is coming from a moderate agnostic, if you're wondering...
 
You're making stuff up (specifically in that case the wholly untrue claim that I said moderate Muslims were more likely to succeed in terrorism) and claiming it's my position. I'm not willing to defend that. You're also babbling the ever so useful word 'Islamophobia', presumably because it's easier to try to silence someone by saying they are irrationally prejudiced than it is to counter their line of argument.



Are you actually arguing that the difference in meaning between "partly" and "only" is irrelevant? You appear to be doing so, but that would be silly.

At the moment, I'm thinking that you've dead set on making things up and pretending your creations are my position and that you consider any clarification I write as an irrelevancy.



Once again: I am under no obligation to defend things that you make up. They are yours, not mine.


The quotes are yours, only the interpretation of your statement are mine. You defend those quotes by deflection, refusal and semantics. "Less extreme Muslims" are by definition, more moderate muslims.

The difference in the words Partly and Only is irrelevent because they were in the irrelevant part of the quote. It was the second part of what you stated that I was refering to.

At no time have I invented anything, just told you what I understand to be your meaning, yet you will not defend those statements so my interpretation stands. You havent offered any real clarification beyond your explanation of your friends belief.
 
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That website is just...... WOW.

I know people are saying this is just Islamic extremists, but what do people think will happen if these people acctually manage to get somewhere? Yes i know it will never happen but what if it did?

Do you realy think non extremists would help us to stop it from happerning? Or do you think they would sit back and bask in the glory?

Also is it just me or has that facebook page against the prostest got thousands of members and no islam people have joined? (Altho i did just have a quick scan as it's a hell of a lot of people to scan threw)

Seems to me like a lot of islam people just sit back and dont get involved so it all gets plamed on "extremists" dont mean they dont agree with them does it?
 
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They're perfectly at liberty to protest against a war...

However, for the protest to be effective it should be made to the government, not to a town that happens to have a lot of soldiers.

They're trolling, basically.

I agree.

Trolling of the highest order and very disrespectful.
 
That website is just...... WOW.

I know people are saying this is just Islamic extremists, but what do people think will happen if these people acctually manage to get somewhere? Yes i know it will never happen but what if it did?

Do you realy think non extremists would help us to stop it from happerning? Or do you think they would sit back and bask in the glory?

Also is it just me or has that facebook page against the prostest got thousands of members and no islam people have joined? (Altho i did just have a quick scan as it's a hell of a lot of people to scan threw)

Seems to me like a lot of islam people just sit back and dont get involved so it all gets plamed on "extremists" dont mean they dont agree with them does it?

Well, it's very difficult to predict the consequences of something which you acknowledge is never going to happen! Evidence from history says they'll back a winner, just like everybody else does, how many people knew the nazi treatment of jews was wrong vs. how many did anything about it? (honourable mention to Denmark where they did help them accepted).

While there may not be many muslims on the facebook group, I'm not on the facebook group and I've no intention of being. Primarily because any such group is going to be a haven for idiots who think every muslim is a terrorist and I've no wish to be associated with that - no matter how laudable the original aim of the group.

That and I also don't think it should be stopped, as I think should be the position of anyone who believes in democracy and free speech. Their protest should be called off because some people don't like what they have to say? Right.
 
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