Poll: *** 2010 General Election Result & Discussion ***

[Jono8]

So how would PR help the situation we have now ( hung parliment)? The tories would still have the larger percentage of the votes and seats but the Lib Dem's would just have more seats.

All i see is that PR will just benefit the Lib Dems and not help out the sort of situation we find ourselves in at the moment. In fact it would make it worse as it would have been even closer between the 3 parties.

 

[Greebo]

So how would PR help the situation we have now ( hung parliment)? The tories would still have the larger percentage of the votes and seats but the Lib Dem's would just have more seats.

All i see is that PR will just benefit the Lib Dems and not help out the situation we find ourselves in at the moment. In fact it would make it worse as it would be even closer between the 3 parties.

That's the point. Under PR Lib Dems would have about 150 seats. With our 3 party system, PR would pretty much guarantee a hung parliament but that would always give the controlling power to the LIB Dems as to which side they go with.

This is why Cons and Labour don;t want PR and Lib Dems do as apart from this one result with our current system, Lib Dems will never get power any other way as they will never win outright in the first past the post system.

 

[Jono8]

That's the point. Under PR Lib Dems would have about 150 seats. With our 3 party system, PR would pretty much guarantee a hung parliament but that would always give the controlling power to the LIB Dems as to which side they go with.

This is why Cons and Labour don;t want PR and Lib Dems do as apart from this one result with our current system, Lib Dems will never get power any other way as they will never win outright in the first past the post system.

Well, why should they get power when they have the least amount of overall votes out of the 3 main parties

Im sorry but it just strikes me that PR will just make it even more difficult to choose a winner for a general election and we will end up with even more occurences of a hung parliment.

 

[lazer46]

Things is, Lib Dems may rise greatly in popularity and one day may not be 3rd in the polls etc!

 

[stockhausen]

So how would PR help the situation we have now ( hung parliment)? The tories would still have the larger percentage of the votes and seats but the Lib Dem's would just have more seats.

All i see is that PR will just benefit the Lib Dems and not help out the situation we find ourselves in at the moment. In fact it would make it worse as it would be even closer between the 3 parties.

There is a page on the ever helpful BBC online that illustrates the effects on the 2010 result of three different voting systems (First Past The Post - Alternate Vote - Single Transferable Vote) and gives some explanation as to how they work. It gives the following results:

• FPTP - New Labour - 258 : Tory - 307 : Liberal Democrat - 57 : Others - 28
• AV - New Labour - 262 : Tory - 281 : Liberal Democrat - 79 : Others - 28
• STV - New Labour - 207 : Tory - 246 : Liberal Democrat - 162 : Others - 35

This may give an idea as to why New Labour and the Tories favour AV and aren't entirely keen on any of the alternative systems

... All i see is that PR will just benefit the Lib Dems and not help out the situation we find ourselves in at the moment. In fact it would make it worse as it would be even closer between the 3 parties.

It rather depends by what you mean by "worse". I would suggest that a more representative, cooperative Parliament might be a better idea than the current system which results in an unrepresentative, confrontational "yah booh!" style of government.

The introduction of some proportional representation system needs to be accompanied by other changes in our Parliamentary system where MPs work for the benefit of the majority of the people of Great Britain rather than for the benefit of whichever party and pressure group or tribe they happen to represent.

 

[bam0]

Well, why should they get power when they have the least amount of overall votes out of the 3 main parties

Im sorry but it just strikes me that PR will just make it even more difficult to choose a winner for a general election and we will end up with even more occurences of a hung parliment.

That's where the difference lies, I don't think it's a bad thing for there not to be an outright "winner" in a general election, I like the idea of coalition governments that have to gain a consensus to pass legislation rather than battering it through with their whips.
And in a PR system you would almost certainly find a growth in the smaller parties as people would feel freer to vote their conscience knowing their vote would count and their ideas represented. You'd probably also find at least Labour and the Conservatives (if not the Lib Dems as well) breaking in half as there are some pretty obvious factions within them.

 

[Jono8]

There is a page on the ever helpful BBC online that illustrates the effects on the 2010 result of three different voting systems (First Past The Post - Alternate Vote - Single Transferable Vote) and gives some explanation as to how they work. It gives the following results:

• FPTP - New Labour - 258 : Tory - 307 : Liberal Democrat - 57 : Others - 28
• AV - New Labour - 262 : Tory - 281 : Liberal Democrat - 79 : Others - 28
• STV - New Labour - 207 : Tory - 246 : Liberal Democrat - 162 : Others - 35

This may give an idea as to why New Labour and the Tories favour AV and aren't entirely keen on any of the alternative systems


It rather depends by what you mean by "worse". I would suggest that a more representative, cooperative Parliament might be a better idea than the current system which results in an unrepresentative, confrontational "yah booh!" style of government.

The introduction of some proportional representation system needs to be accompanied by other changes in our Parliamentary system where MPs work for the benefit of the majority of the people of Great Britain rather than for the benefit of whichever party and pressure group or tribe they happen to represent.

True, but this is assuming the parties can be properly co-operative...and i have my doubts.

 

[lazer46]

Proportional Representation is the best way forward for the 'country'.

 

[RDM]

Proportional Representation is the best way forward for the 'country'.

What type of Proportional Representation?

 

[lazer46]

What type of Proportional Representation?

Single Transferable Vote is the best by far. Seems fairer to me.

 

[stockhausen]

Well, why should they get power when they have the least amount of overall votes out of the 3 main parties ...

It is entirely possible that this is simply as a result of people considering that a vote for the Liberal Democrats is a "wasted" vote. Under a fairer system, perhaps more people would vote for the Liberal Democrats?

I have certainly had this point made to me repeatedly on the doorstep when I was out canvassing for the Liberal Democrats in a safe Tory seat last week. People were voting Tory not because they agreed with the Tories but because they hated Gordon Brown - sad but true

A cooperative, more broadly based and inherently unstable Parliament would in my opinion be likely to eliminate some of the more extreme, unpopular decisions designed to benefit a minority, some powerful pressure group or their financial backers. MPs would know this and would be aware that if it became apparent that they couldn't work together for the benefit of the majority, they would lose their seat at the next election and this would focus their minds on doing their jobs.

No doubt there would be problems but it is quite clear that the system we have now is grossly unfair and doesn't appear to work that well in the 21st century either.

 

[merlin]

Lab-Lib pact will enrage the electorate. I wonder if Labour and the Lib Dems realise this?

 

[philip2009]

That's where the difference lies, I don't think it's a bad thing for there not to be an outright "winner" in a general election...

In FPTP you get tyranny of the majority, while in PR you can get tyranny of the minorities. I'd rather have tyranny of the majority and their middle of the road politics. Frankly this is just a taste of PR style politics and while Clegg talks like a saint he acts like a sinner and so will any other minority party that holds the balance of power.

You're right about a growth of smaller parties under PR of course, look at how well the BNP did in the last European elections. Wouldn't it be great to have Nick Griffin in Nick Clegg's position - or any other lunatic fringe political party ?

 

[Mr Jack]

Im sorry but it just strikes me that PR will just make it even more difficult to choose a winner for a general election and we will end up with even more occurences of a hung parliment.

Yes, it will. There will, without exception, be a hung parliament. This is a good thing. We'd also have more parties able to get seats in parliament - also a good thing.

We've had 30 years of bad governance resulting, at least in part, from the fact that first the Tories, and then Labour, had such majorities that they could pass ill thought out legislation with ease.

 

[Jono8]

It is entirely possible that this is simply as a result of people considering that a vote for the Liberal Democrats is a "wasted" vote. Under a fairer system, perhaps more people would vote for the Liberal Democrats?

I have certainly had this point made to me repeatedly on the doorstep when I was out canvassing for the Liberal Democrats in a safe Tory seat last week. People were voting Tory not because they agreed with the Tories but because they hated Gordon Brown - sad but true

A cooperative, more broadly based and inherently unstable Parliament would in my opinion be likely to eliminate some of the more extreme, unpopular decisions designed to benefit a minority, some powerful pressure group or their financial backers. MPs would know this and would be aware that if it became apparent that they couldn't work together for the benefit of the majority, they would lose their seat at the next election and this would focus their minds on doing their jobs.
No doubt there would be problems but it is quite clear that the system we have now is grossly unfair and doesn't appear to work that well in the 21st century either.

Or it will create a 'muddy' parliment where nothing gets decided upon..

It all seems a bit idealistic to believe that proportional representation will benefit the countries political system.

 

[RDM]

Lab-Lib pact will enrage the electorate. I wonder if Labour and the Lib Dems realise this?

At least some of the Labour party do and consider it wrong. But this is coalition politics at work so we may as well sit back and watch the show as we no longer have any say in it.

 

[Von Smallhausen]

Lab-Lib pact will enrage the electorate. I wonder if Labour and the Lib Dems realise this?

John Reid said that yesterday when interviewed by the BBC.

What he said made a lot of sense in that Labour and indeed the Lib Dems risk being spanked big time by the electorate and voted into oblivion.

 

[Jono8]

In FPTP you get tyranny of the majority, while in PR you can get tyranny of the minorities. I'd rather have tyranny of the majority and their middle of the road politics. Frankly this is just a taste of PR style politics and while Clegg talks like a saint he acts like a sinner and so will any other minority party that holds the balance of power.

You're right about a growth of smaller parties under PR of course, look at how well the BNP did in the last European elections. Wouldn't it be great to have Nick Griffin in Nick Clegg's position - or any other lunatic fringe political party ?

agreed

 

[Mr Jack]

In FPTP you get tyranny of the majority, while in PR you can get tyranny of the minorities. I'd rather have tyranny of the majority and their middle of the road politics. Frankly this is just a taste of PR style politics and while Clegg talks like a saint he acts like a sinner and so will any other minority party that holds the balance of power.

Rubbish. FPTP gives tyranny of the minority. We almost never have a majority government. In PR, compromises between parties produce outcomes that are acceptable to a larger proportion of the electorate and (as other countries demonstrate) are better at being fiscalling responsible and otherwise delivering good governance.

You're right about a growth of smaller parties under PR of course, look at how well the BNP did in the last European elections. Wouldn't it be great to have Nick Griffin in Nick Clegg's position - or any other lunatic fringe political party ?

Parties like the BNP will not get enough influence to be kingmakers. If it ever came to pass that enough of the British electorate vote for those loathsome toerags that they did; well, democracy is democracy.

 

[Mr Jack]

It all seems a bit idealistic to believe that proportional representation will benefit the countries political system.

Why? Loads of other countries have it? And it works very well for them.