Muslims against Christmas?

Castiel said:
So to attempt to express the passage as married women are slaves is simply wrong.
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Wait where have i ever tried to say that?:confused::confused::confused:



Im sitting here reading it from the quran I have at home.
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So not the first one you used then?

what does yours say?

You do realise that there are no slaves in modern islamic countries.
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Yes, but how on earth does that change what's written in the quran and what you said in relation to


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Since when did Islam protect the rights of women? An idiot religion that is, at best, 500 years behind Christianity.
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Not read the quran then obviously.
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Don't know about you but the implication slaves are open for rape doesn't seem that protective of women's rights.
 
Disregarding the fact that all religion is bad and counter-productive for a second (and that i've said we should celebrate the Winter Solstice instead for ages), what i can gather from the OP seems to be that they're expressing their opinion in a peaceful way. What's wrong with that?
 
Tefal said:
Read the hadith and the other translations it seems to very strongly suggest you can do with a female slave you gained through war what you like sexually with or without her permission nd that this was fine in Mohamed and Allah's eyes.

like i said try reading a translation not by a well to say "radical" would be an understatement, also you know the site you used is his followers group and not exactly reliable.
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So you picked a translation that suits your argument instead of the one mentioned above.
There are many translations by many people, some done badly some not.

I've just read 5 translations, not one says you can have sex with a slave girl without her permission.

As for hadiths, you have to provide sources. there are thousands of hadiths.
And not all hadiths are legit anyway. many fraudulent hadiths even in islamic books. So you have to specify the hadith and verify its authenticity before using it as a source.
 
sswats said:
So you picked a translation that suits your argument instead of the one mentioned above.
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Well the one mentioned above was written by a guy who had angels speak to him, thought there was a mathematical code hidden in it and said certain parts of it should be ignored.


I've just read 5 translations, not one says you can have sex with a slave girl without her permission.
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Care to post them?

because these are the 5 i used

Pickthall
And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess. It is a decree of Allah for you. Lawful unto you are all beyond those mentioned, so that ye seek them with your wealth in honest wedlock, not debauchery. And those of whom ye seek content (by marrying them), give unto them their portions as a duty. And there is no sin for you in what ye do by mutual agreement after the duty (hath been done). Lo! Allah is ever Knower, Wise.

Yusuf Ali
Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess: Thus hath Allah ordained (Prohibitions) against you: Except for these, all others are lawful, provided ye seek (them in marriage) with gifts from your property,- desiring chastity, not lust, seeing that ye derive benefit from them, give them their dowers (at least) as prescribed; but if, after a dower is prescribed, agree Mutually (to vary it), there is no blame on you, and Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.

Shakir
And all married women except those whom your right hands possess (this is) Allah's ordinance to you, and lawful for you are (all women) besides those, provided that you seek (them) with your property, taking (them) in marriage not committing fornication. Then as to those whom you profit by, give them their dowries as appointed; and there is no blame on you about what you mutually agree after what is appointed; surely Allah is Knowing, Wise.

Dr. Ghali
And women in wedlock (are forbidden to you), except what your right hands possess. It is the prescribing (Literally: the book) of Allah for you. And lawful for you, beyond all that, is that you seek after (them) with your riches (i.e., that you pay them a dowry) in wedlock, other than in fornication. So (with) whomever of these (women) you enjoy the privilege of marriage, then bring them their rewards as an ordinance, and it is no fault in you in whatever you consented to among yourselves even after the ordinance. Surely Allah has been Ever-Knowing, Ever-Wise.

Sahih International
And [also prohibited to you are all] married women except those your right hands possess. [This is] the decree of Allah upon you. And lawful to you are [all others] beyond these, [provided] that you seek them [in marriage] with [gifts from] your property, desiring chastity, not unlawful sexual intercourse. So for whatever you enjoy [of marriage] from them, give them their due compensation as an obligation. And there is no blame upon you for what you mutually agree to beyond the obligation. Indeed, Allah is ever Knowing and Wise.

Muhsin Khan
Also (forbidden are) women already married, except those (captives and slaves) whom your right hands possess. Thus has Allah ordained for you. All others are lawful, provided you seek (them in marriage) with Mahr (bridal money given by the husband to his wife at the time of marriage) from your property, desiring chastity, not committing illegal sexual intercourse, so with those of whom you have enjoyed sexual relations, give them their Mahr as prescribed; but if after a Mahr is prescribed, you agree mutually (to give more), there is no sin on you. Surely, Allah is Ever All-Knowing, All-Wise.
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they seem quite consistent.


As for hadiths, you have to provide sources. there are thousands of hadiths.
And not all hadiths are legit anyway. many fraudulent hadiths even in islamic books. So you have to specify the hadith and verify its authenticity before using it as a source.
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Can stick to the verse if you like?

oddly i never got an answer from the last guy who said he had his quran in front of him when i asked him what his said in this verse.
 
Xmas is not about religion you fools, it's all about presents and drinking and eating till your stomachs hurts. Ah and about few days off from work :)
 
I think it's obvious that there are many interpretations of religious passages, but I am rather dubious of any implied authority of anyone here - it's clearly just 'my google results vs yours'.

By all means debate, but don't let it decend into the opinions of armchair experts :p
 
I went to a Christmas (Eve) rave once. It did indeed ruin Christmas. Came home at 10am, ate a tiny bit of turkey and then fell asleep. Parents weren't happy.
 
Nitefly said:
I think it's obvious that there are many interpretations of religious passages, but I am rather dubious of any authority of anyone here as it's just 'my google results vs yours'.

By all means debate, but don't let it decend into the opinions of armchair experts :p
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of course not, I just found it very strange that last time it came up a few seemed to refuse to say what they thought it meant, and even out right refused to ask the people they said could say what it meant even though they said the passage did disturb them.

Seems like they reached a similar conclusion to most but wanted to just try and ignore it.
 
Tefal said:
Wait where have i ever tried to say that?:confused::confused::confused:





So not the first one you used then?

what does yours say?



Yes, but how on earth does that change what's written in the quran and what you said in relation to






Don't know about you but the implication slaves are open for rape doesn't seem that protective of women's rights.
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mine says the same as I stated, it's by Abdullah Yusuf Ali.

I don't disagree with what you say about slavery, however at the time of it being written Slaves were not seen as people but property. The Quran actually stopped this and Sharia gave certain rights to slaves including them being considered human beings.

The Quran states that kindness should be shown to slaves:

4.36 Serve Allah, and join not any partners with Him; and do good- to parents, kinsfolk, orphans, those in need, neighbours who are near, neighbours who are strangers, the companion by your side, the wayfarer (ye meet), and what your right hands possess: For Allah loveth not the arrogant, the vainglorious;-

9.60 Alms are for the poor and the needy, and those employed to administer the (funds); for those whose hearts have been (recently) reconciled (to Truth); for those in bondage and in debt; in the cause of Allah; and for the wayfarer: (thus is it) ordained by Allah, and Allah is full of knowledge and wisdom.



This is probably the most relevant passage on the use of Slaves as prostitutes or raping them...



24:33 Let those who find not the wherewithal for marriage keep themselves chaste, until Allah gives them means out of His grace. And if any of your slaves ask for a deed in writing (to enable them to earn their freedom for a certain sum), give them such a deed if ye know any good in them: yea, give them something yourselves out of the means which Allah has given to you. But force not your maids to prostitution when they desire chastity, in order that ye may make a gain in the goods of this life. But if anyone compels them, yet, after such compulsion, is Allah, Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (to them)


So if the slave wishes to remain chaste, it is incumbent on the Muslim owner to honour that.

You are quoting a passage that relates to Muslim women and marriage which exempts Slaves from those rights regarding dowry and marriage. Islam allows concubines, however it doesn't infer that it is ok to rape women whether they are slaves or not.



All taken from Abdullah Yusuf Ali translations.
 
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Castiel said:
mine says the same as I stated, it's by Abdullah Yusuf Ali.
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ignoring the rest of the post for now (busy atm.)

Either you're lying or the internet is.

because Abdullah Yusuf Ali's translation of the verse is considerably different from the one you initially claimed to have used.


the one you initially used

[4:24] Also prohibited are the women who are already married, unless they flee their disbelieving husbands who are at war with you. These are GOD's commandments to you. All other categories are permitted for you in marriage, so long as you pay them their due dowries. You shall maintain your morality, by not committing adultery. Thus, whoever you like among them, you shall pay them the dowry decreed for them. You commit no error by mutually agreeing to any adjustments to the dowry. GOD is Omniscient, Most Wise.
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Yusuf ali's

Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess: Thus hath Allah ordained (Prohibitions) against you: Except for these, all others are lawful, provided ye seek (them in marriage) with gifts from your property,- desiring chastity, not lust, seeing that ye derive benefit from them, give them their dowers (at least) as prescribed; but if, after a dower is prescribed, agree Mutually (to vary it), there is no blame on you, and Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.
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So which is it?
 
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