The great EU debate
- Thread starter Judgeneo
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The problem with the EU is the countries that are in it which are leechers and don't contribute.
EU should be France, Spain, Italy, Germany, UK. The others, what do they contribute to? Its just easy access for them to come over here and apply for benefits etc. No wonder their GDP went up, money sent from here over there?
EU should be France, Spain, Italy, Germany, UK. The others, what do they contribute to? Its just easy access for them to come over here and apply for benefits etc. No wonder their GDP went up, money sent from here over there?
[TW]Fox;20340768 said:
I don't think he has from my point of view. Do you not have your own arguments?
[TW]Fox;20340768 said:
I don't share the same poor opinion of the public at large.
[TW]Fox;20340768 said:
Yes?
Why not? Because a select few think nearly everyone else is a moron?
That isn't very convincing in light of precedent with similar matters, or the principles of democracy itself.
[TW]Fox;20340553 said:You think I should leave a country that isn't holding a referendum because I disagree with the idea of a referendum?
You post some properly odd stuff but this is the best this week
so if we leave the EU your going to join an eu country?
Tell us how the UK would suffer as a direct result of withdrawing from the EU.
![[TW]Fox](/data/man-of-honor/2009.png){kind=avatar}
Not having a detailed understanding of a complex subject doesnt make you a moron, it just means its probably not a subject you should have a crucial vote on.
If there was a referendum tommorrow on whether we allow Scotland independance, I couldnt happily vote. I dont understand the pros and cons well enough. My vote would be a blind vote based on assumption or opinion gleaned from others not detailed understanding. I'm not a moron, but I wouldn't want such an important decision made on the basis of the opinions of people like myself.
I'm sure you can think of all sorts of stupid things you could get a majority to vote on. I reckon if we had a referendum tommorrow about whether fuel should be subsidised so its only 10p a litre, it would pass. People would vote in favour. Yet what would it do to our country?
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I'd agree it would almost certainly survive but it would be quite significantly diminished if the Euro were to fail so there's a lot more riding on keeping the Euro going than at first glance perhaps.
As mentioned above free movement of people and trade is a pretty significant benefit although I obviously accept that you may personally not have availed yourself of such options. However as with many things it's often worth looking at the wider vista than the more immediate sights, just because you haven't had cause to use a benefit of the EU doesn't mean that you never will or indeed that it hasn't helped out those you know.
You don't need to have studied EU law formally to discuss the EU and it's various benefits/drawbacks knowledgeably but as with almost any form of academic study it can certainly help to clarify issues that aren't instantly obvious. The EU and the various laws/bodies that constitute it are pretty complex given that it's a fairly simple concept to bring multiple member states into closer unity and encourage trade between them. For the little it matters I have studied EU law and enjoyed it (well parts of it) but I wouldn't claim to speak knowledgeably about it now (or even when studying it) as it's a huge topic with often contradictory decisions - the EU doesn't follow stare decisis (being bound by previous decisions, especially of higher courts) as we do so while they may look at other decisions they don't even have to be clever about distinguishing them on a point of law if they don't like a prior decision.
A mostly worthless question as we won't be leaving the EU, but, no. Because my opinion on referendum isn't country specific, as I went on to explain.
Which would make you question the efficiency of the process.
Which makes them unaccountable and instable, and uncertain, in the understanding of their legal processes and functions.
The system is quite incompatible with our own.
Between looking for plane tickets for my next holiday to South East Asia, going to the gym and in general not giving a hoot I shall not bother.
But I'll just ask you this and give you a brief idea, the EU has created millions of jobs in the UK, for example, a lot of US/Asian/South American/African companies who have offices in London, if the UK left the EU, all these jobs would be shifted to most likely Dublin or Frankfurt, there's also freedom of movement, hundreds of thousands of British students have the opportunity to study international and hundreds of thousands of British people have the opportunity to move as well to find better jobs elsewhere, the UK gives Europe a lot of money is true, but the EU also gives a lot back, the UK has been allocated millions of European funds to fund fishing/agriculture industries and to develop deprived communities in the UK. You also get much greater protection for workers through the European working time directive, you also get much greater consumer protection due to the Single Market of the EU, which enables companies to make their products much cheaper due to the fact no custom taxes are charged on goods that move between member states, also, the EU has forced companies to make each market similar to ensure fair competition between states. A lot of big businesses and English corporations also benefit from the fact that they are able to bring in so many workers to do unskilled and skilled labour, you may argue that this affects you but it's your own fault if that's the only type of job you are able to get, don't blame the immigrants, instead, try to better yourself, I don't see many polish accountants or lawyers in England, but by having this labour available, again, goods are able to be sold cheaper which is something you benefit from. Also, we as a nation are a powerful force, but Europe as a nation is a force to be reckoned with due to our population, military and economical power, but hey, if you think little Britain can take own rising economies like Brazil, China, India and Russia on their own then by all means we should leave, (by the way this is sarcasm because if you really think Britain or Germany or France have a chance to compete against these countries right now on their own then you really must be a deluded individual), the EU has also brought a lot of rights on equality, social inclusion as well as basic human rights which were formed after the second world war, we also have a lot of cooperation on tackling terrorists and crime who would probably have absolutely no business with the likes of Poland, Portugal or Greece but would love to blow the shimmers out of the UK. All our best politicians like Churchill, Thatcher, Blair have been strong candidates of the EU alliance, these people weren't stupid.
Also funny you quoted that article on steam cell, I could quote you many law cases decided in the European Court of Justice which have benefited steam cell research and the laws within it.
There are so many benefits to the UK to be in the EU but everyone is held up on one thing, "loss of UK sovereignty", well wake up, this isn't the 1800s any more and the UK can not compete on it's own, get used to it, unless you plan to form a revolution to take back control of the US,Canada, Australia, New Zealand,Hong Kong,South Africa and everything else, then you might as well just shut up and realise that Europe is your best option. Sure not all their decisions are perfect but what government isn't? Tell me of one single British government in the last 30 years that hasn't screwed up at least once? At least in the EU your faith didn't rely completely in the hands of Gordon Brown, think about that!
Now I'm off, I believe people should do their own research before trying to enter a debate, I have over 10 books just on EU law and legislation/directives alone, I could be writing this post for hours but what's the point if people are just going to keep quoting Daily Fail and the Sun articles.
Single market has nothing to do with the political European Union.
Which we paid them in the first place, the Agricultural funds are a source of contention as well, don't a very large amount of them go to very wealthy estates?
The USSR was a really great place wasn't it.
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Yea, known for its fantastic economical power.
I agree with your point that it's probably a good thing, in terms of the quality of result, that the decision on whether or not to be a member-state of the European Union, or whether or not to ratify the Treaty of Lisbon wasn't put in the hands of the British electorate. But do you not have a problem the fact we were promised a referendum on at least the second issue, and subsequently refused one?[TW]Fox;20340938 said:
I think I would be happier were we never offered a referendum on the Treaty of Lisbon.
Business would not leave. There is no evidence for this.
There has not been millions of jobs.
People have studied abroad for thousands of years. We do not need the EU to do this.
The EU destroyed our fishing industry.
Which can simply be signed away, and is a lot of the time. Free trade and harmonization can be had outside political union.
Arguably would we be better suited outwith, as we are with the Euro, than we would be in. We cannot take on the emerging economies, but it is arguable if the EU state will either as it lurches along at present.
Mostly British instigated. We brought a lot of these notions of rights and equalities, we didn't get them from Europe.
I see very little benefit. The UK can and should compete on its own.
Well guess what, I have over 10 books + 1.
Will people in the UK stop wanting cars from the big three German manufactures if we pull out of the EU. Will those manufactures want to stop selling their products into the UK?