google employee's internal diversity memo goes viral

Caporegime
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interview with the sacked engineer, by the "deplorable" academic mentioned earlier in the thread:


full version here:

https://vid.me/99OCI

so (unsurprisingly) the guy is a little bit of an IT geek/introvert type but then again he doesn't seem to be a full on autistic type either

it seems that what prompted the memo was his attendance at a diversity related meeting where he believes that the company was essentially encouraging illegal practices

he actually sent the memo internally to people a month ago after that meeting, specifically in relation to google's diversity policies - he didn't get much of a response

it was only later when he posted it to an internal skeptics group (according to him he wanted to be proven wrong for people to give him feedback on it etc..) that senior management started the grandstanding/"this is not acceptable" etc.. then it was leaked and obviously, as we now know, only then (a month after he originally created and sent it) was he actually fired
 
Caporegime
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I do kind of make that assumption about most men on the internet who bang on about third wave feminism and dispute the gender pay gap etc.

I'm sure it's not true of everyone, as assumptions never are.

It's not too dissimilar to what we see from the other side though really, the majority of feminists aren't good looking and have issues "fitting in".
 
Soldato
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Just what I thought, the average 'Googler' does not very much per day. A software engineer will arrive mid morning to work, checking git for bugs and code reviews, play with some code for an hour or two, take a long lunch break then a video conference or two. So lots of highly intelligent competitive people under one roof not really doing much all day leads to the need for all these management strategies and philosophies to try and keep people from fighting with each other. As soon as someone voices an opinion it's seen as a threat to the stucture, a rebellion or mutiny and is quickly crushed. Life is too easy nowadays for a lot of people with all the automation and tech.


http://matt-welsh.blogspot.co.uk/2010/12/day-in-life-of-googler.html
http://uk.businessinsider.com/a-typical-day-for-a-google-engineer-2014-12
 
Caporegime
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WRONG! Proper research confirms that bricklaying is a physically demanding job that involves frequent flexing of the trunk of the operative (upper body) and with woman having just above 50% of the upper body strength of men on average then by obvious inference women will be less suited to working in bricklaying jobs given that men and women experience similar relative strength gains when training under the same programme so the average woman would have a lot of 'adaptation' to do to be as capable as the average UNTRAINED man.

Of course, this doesn't mean that all women are incapable of working as bricklayers just that they are far less suitable for the role the men on average.

Of course not many people advocate seriously for increasing the amount of women bricklayers anyway because it’s a physical, dirty, dangerous job........

For bricklayers evidence was found for physical demands and risk on low back pain and complaints of arms and legs, for construction supervisors on psychosocial demands. Both occupations are at increased risk of lung cancer and injuries.

Except none of what you wrote after the quote you picked demonstrates anything as being wrong.

Let's go back to your quote.

Amp34 said:
even then many of the more physical jobs could be done by a significant proportion of women as well, for example bricklaying. Your body adapts, both for men and women.

Care to demonstrate where I claim bricklaying isn't a physically demanding job? Heck it's even in the quote...

Amp34 said:
of the more physical jobs

So your first link is irrelevant, as is the last link.

Care to tell me in my quote where I said women on average would just as good as as the average man at bricklaying due to strength requirements? You can't, because I didn't, so again, while interesting it's irrelevant.

So that pretty much leaves us with this point:

Of course, this doesn't mean that all women are incapable of working as bricklayers just that they are far less suitable for the role the men on average.

Agreed, as I've expanded on in subsequent posts. Now the question is do you really believe that only 1% of women can become bricklayers, or is there something else to it, rather than just strength?

Perhaps next time you reply to a post claiming "WRONG", perhaps you should actually read what was written, rather than what you think was written?

It’s amazing how powerful the patriarchy (or insert whatever nonsense explanation you wish to support the 'socialisation' explanation for gender roles') is now isn't it!

Where exactly have we found a group of humans with indistinguishable gender roles? Or even where has there been an example where a group of humans did not conform to 'stereotypical' male and female gender roles outside of modern western countries (which still largely conform to stereotypical gender roles despite continual assault from political gender revisionism)?



Yes I disagree with UCATT, as unions (In the UK at least) a now almost the exclusive enclaves of public sector workers and proportionally more women are in unions then men

‘The proportion of female employees who were in a trade union was around 27.7% in 2015, compared with 21.7% for male employees.’

‘Union membership levels in the private sector were almost 2.7 million members, an increase of 6,000 since 2014. Despite the small increase in numbers, the proportion of trade union members amongst private sector employees fell slightly from 14.2% to 13.9%'

'In the public sector, union membership levels increased by 29,000 year-on-year to 3.80 million in 2015. Trade union density in the public sector rose from 54.3% to 54.8% in 2015.’

Source

So its on the Unions self interest to promote more women in the industries they represent! That's before we get to their Marxist leanings.....

Check out their twitter feed

Re tweet of Jeremey Corbyn standing by a socialism banner…check

Re tweet from the Morning Star… check

Lots of political attacks on the Tory Party… check

So yes you’re going to have to do a lot better than an advocacy piece from an un representative left leaning Union!

And talking about advocacy pieces……..



Oh dear… word of advice be very careful about advocacy journalism anyone who knows anything about statistics knows how cherry-picked data can be used to prove just about anything……. You linked to an article from the Women’s Engineering society… do you think they might have a bit of an agenda maybe?

The results are clearly all over the place....

for example if you look at your link which shows Latvia being at the top but yet with Lithuania being fourth from bottom! 30% vs 14.3% respectively! Care to explain that by your hypothesis?


Despite them being countries....

1) next to one another on the Baltic sea
2) both being of a comparable size
3) with a not too dissimilar total populations and GDP's per capita
4) and with very similar cultures
5) and up until not that long ago both controlled under the same regime (that of the USSR)


link Latvia 64,589km2, population 1,953,200 (2016 est) GDP Per capital 27,189 (US Dollars)

link Lithuania 65,300km2, population 2,821,674 (2017 est) GDP Per capital 31,849 (US Dollars)


Could it be maybe that the distribution of different types of engineering jobs in different countries (and what qualifies as being an 'engineer' in different countries) is relevant? For example Biomedical and Environmental Engineering have a far higher percentage of women working in them then compared to other engineering disciplines.

Of course we also see potential indication (if not evidence) of what is often called the Nordic paradox whereby more egalitarian countries sometimes show less participation in traditionally male roles then less egalitarian countries as the women have more choice to exercise their preferences vs their counterparts elsewhere who go more to whatever jobs will give then security and money to get by leading to higher rates of participation in certain files i.e STEM jobs (yes I am aware that in your link Sweden scores quite highly in the link but this is not generally replicated across all top/skilled jobs in the country .....


Sorry you have linked to a sloppy piece of advocacy work....

My personal favorite from your link is this claim.....

‘Enabling women to meet their full potential in work could add as much as $28 trillion to annual GDP in 2025, raising global economic output by 26 percent over a business-as-usual scenario.’

I wonder what the (not stated in this quote) downslides would be of women meeting their full economic output potential? Pure fantasy masquerading as attainable outcome from a think tank...

Of course back in the real word questions may have to be asked as to whether it is wise to advocate to hire an ever increasing amount of female professionals... given that they still disproportionally choose to take more part time work and leave then men on average.

'looking at the not seasonally adjusted series, around 13.4 million women aged 16 to 64 were in work (42% part-time) and 15.3 million men (12% part-time)'

Just take the NHS in England where were on the tipping point of having more women doctors then men which has caused issues as it has caused the total amount of hours worked in the profession to drop as women disproportionately elect to work part time

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/mobile/health/8077083.stm

Disregarding what sounds awfully like alt right gunf (patriarchy nonsense and Corbin socialism tat)

Thanks for the advocacy journalism speech, it was "interesting", but broadly irrelevant. WES didn't collect or analyze the data, all they did was provide it in a nice clear graph. Other organisations have published this analysis as well, including the Independent and Spectator.

The analysis was done by the UK Researh Council, an equality organisation funded by the Government, and the original data was collected by The European Labour Force Suvey. So if you'd like to have another go I'd love to hear your speech on advocacy journalism aimed at the British Government.

Alternatively rather than doing the typical Alt Right junk of rubbishing a source without actually comparing the data, why not find some data that contradicts it, or even better why not head over to http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/microdata/european-union-labour-force-survey and analyze the data yourself to show why the UKRC analysis is wrong?

As already mentioned there may be a variation in the exact definition of engineer, yet can that really explain why there's such a big variation? Are there really that many bioengineers and environmental engineers in one country but not the other? Perhaps you can find out so you can properly refute the data presented?

Why not just consider that maybe, just maybe it has less to do with what women can and can't do, but societal norms. It's not as if it's a particularly controversial claim outside of certain circles. Women's roles in the workforce can vary quite significantly depending on the culture and country. Go back to computer science (as in the reason of this thread), and you'll see that in some countries there basically is no gender divide (eg India with a broadly 50:50 split on CS courses, because computers aren't seen as a male thing there). Again western countries are significantly less diverse than other nations.

https://m.cacm.acm.org/magazines/20...ity-in-computer-science-in-india/abstract#R3l

And another article with data (this time from the OECD which doesn't include countries like India and Nigeria) showing a similar trend, the UK lagging behind many other countries with women's participation in Computer Sciences.

https://www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/284272/

And another, this time from UNESCO.

http://unesdoc.unesco.org/images/0024/002457/245717e.pdf (The graph on page 2 showing the variation of uptake between a variety of countries).

They even write this

A number of factors are influencing the low participation of girls and women in STEM. These include wider sociocultural and labour market preconceptions which greatly affect career choices and perspectives among young people, especially with regard to which professions are perceived as well-suited for women or men. Education has a significant impact, particularly in terms of gender-sensitive policies and frameworks, teacher training and recruitment, as well as ensuring that learning materials are free of gender stereotypes. Psychosocial influences are also not to be underestimated, particularly in shaping student attitudes towards STEM-related subjects, which can greatly influence levels of achievement as well as future career choices and perspectives.

That ties in with the other OECD dataset provided in the Altantic link earlier, girls maths ability. PISA tests indicate their ability between men and women is marginal (within 2%) and in some countries men are "worse" at maths than women.

So with all that in mind I have to ask what you think of the subject. Why are there less women in STEM subjects? Do you think it's because they aren't as good as men? Do you think they just don't want to, even when it usually pays better? Or would you argue for other reasons?

All the data above shows it's very country specific and there certainly isn't an argument that women as a whole aren't good enough. That leaves us with their desire to do the subject, which again appears to be very country specific, perhaps it's to do with societal norms and preconceptions which is pretty well cemented as one of the major issues? Perhaps the old cliche about women innately wanting to be carers over career is wrong?


So on to your other comments. Why is it a negative to not have women participating in the workforce? That's like asking why is it negative to have a 50% unemployment rate. It's actually one of the major differences amongst many less developed countries. Those that don't have a high mobilization of the female workforce are generally poorer economically. As a country you're utilizing only half your resources, which is why that figure is so high. It's a pretty standard feature of Sustainable Development models - trying to get a higher mobilization of women in the workforce. It's the same reason during the World wars women's participation in manufacturing increased significantly, it greatly increased the labour force and ability to manufacture.

As for why women are more likely to want to work part time - other than questioning why that's a bad thing (it's something that many are advocating for everyone now) it's probably worth pointing out that women still do the majority of the housework and childcare in most countries (see above links). It's still a societal norm in many countries for women to do the majority of the childcare and it's only very recently that men have had anywhere near the same rights as women to take time off to look after their children. More and more men are requesting flexible hours too, for the same reasons.

I'll leave you with this article in Forbes, which sums up another reason for greater equality in the workforce.

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.for...ity-solved-more-women-means-more-profits/amp/

Companies with 30% female executives rake in as much as six percentage points more in profits, according to a study, feeding into a global debate over the scarcity of women in decision-making business roles.

The conclusion stems from a study of about 22,000 publicly-traded companies in 91 countries ranging from Mexico to Norway and Italy conducted by researchers at The Peterson Institute for International Economics, a Washington, DC-based think tank.
Again, with all that said I'm not advocating positive discrimination, rather the continuation of the change in culture we have been seeing over the last century, the removal of stereotypes and more equal standing amongst careers and subject advice in schools. It's been proven jay this works, and it doesn't discriminate against others.
 
Caporegime
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The one that has this note?



:confused:

Well glad I added the quote that said the same thing then. ;)

So again, rather than spend your time trying every way to avoid the actual data, why not actually try and discuss the data and what it means, or alternatively do as I said in the last post - find some data that contradicts it, or go to the original source and analyze the data yourself.
 
Man of Honour
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This is a straw-man argument. People calling for more diversity in the tech industry don't believe that everyone in a biological group is the same. [..]

That's obviously untrue. People calling for "diversity" define it solely in terms of the biological characteristics they believe are the defining characteristics of a person. Since they believe that certain biological characteristics define a person, they believe that everyone in a biological group is the same.
 
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granted this is a bit dubious but still quite amusing:

DeVfUFV.jpg

Well, for some real people at Google like that (not my work)..

598b32719d1b9.jpg
 

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Soldato
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What is with so many people with pink/purple hair? Usually teal as well. Somebody want to explain this...

Just what I thought, the average 'Googler' does not very much per day. A software engineer will arrive mid morning to work, checking git for bugs and code reviews, play with some code for an hour or two, take a long lunch break then a video conference or two. So lots of highly intelligent competitive people under one roof not really doing much all day leads to the need for all these management strategies and philosophies to try and keep people from fighting with each other. As soon as someone voices an opinion it's seen as a threat to the stucture, a rebellion or mutiny and is quickly crushed. Life is too easy nowadays for a lot of people with all the automation and tech.


http://matt-welsh.blogspot.co.uk/2010/12/day-in-life-of-googler.html
http://uk.businessinsider.com/a-typical-day-for-a-google-engineer-2014-12

Second link has to be a joke, surely?

 

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V F

Soldato
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"I'm also a computer witch" Hmm...

Is that these gamers that curse and abuse you for destroying them? Aimbot h4x0r!
 
Caporegime
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Well, for some real people at Google like that (not my work)..

598b32719d1b9.jpg

One in the top right is a bit dodgy - frankly I'd not like to see either Nazis or Communists at google. I suspect if someone had "punch all the communists" though and described themselves as a "national socialist" then they'd not last too long, bit odd that it is tolerated this way around.
 

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Soldato
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One in the top right is a bit dodgy - frankly I'd not like to see either Nazis or Communists at google. I suspect if someone had "punch all the communists" though and described themselves as a "national socialist" then they'd not last too long, bit odd that it is tolerated this way around.


I'm so sick of how everything no matter where it is now, has to be so god damn political. There is no, I don't care not taking part. You're either for or against and its a twitter storm.
 
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