Is it time to ban LED Headlights

[ttaskmaster]

Could you see clearly when someone didn't bother to switch off their halogen main beam?

Clear enough, yes, but it wasn't especially comfortable.

Or are you suggesting you cannot see clearly enough to be safe when any car manufactured in the last decade passes you on dipped beam? That seems like it might be an exaggeration...

No.
As I have already stated, it's not every car. Just the ones with massively bright lights.

But I don't crash and die every time one of these pricks drives past me, so it's just my perception and not actually dangerous, right?

 

[lordrobs]

I think there are many issues at play, the actual light type only being one of them. My current car is the first I've had with auto dipping headlights. I persisted with them for 6 months before switching them off permanently. I get technology that removes the need to do something (e.g. climate control) and I get technology that can do something better than I can (e.g cruise control) but auto dipping lights do a worse job than any half competent driver can do. They can only react to the presence of another cars lights, not proactively dip when you see the tell tale beams of light at the crest of a hill or approaching a bend on a country road.

Also on the dual carriageway they are a menace, flipping to mains the second an on coming cars headlights are blocked by the crash barrier.

It seems like another arms race that car drivers are buying in to. Who really needs two grands worth of matrix LED lights on their commuter car? I don't know enough about them for this to be anything more than speculation but, how many of those one million mirrors in a Merc matrix light are still functional at 15 years old? Also, as 15 year old technology what would the replacement cost be? The idea that you can in the future write your car off by splatting a pheasant because it takes out a headlight seems crazy to me.

 

[Nasher]

I think there are many issues at play, the actual light type only being one of them. My current car is the first I've had with auto dipping headlights. I persisted with them for 6 months before switching them off permanently. I get technology that removes the need to do something (e.g. climate control) and I get technology that can do something better than I can (e.g cruise control) but auto dipping lights do a worse job than any half competent driver can do. They can only react to the presence of another cars lights, not proactively dip when you see the tell tale beams of light at the crest of a hill or approaching a bend on a country road.

Also on the dual carriageway they are a menace, flipping to mains the second an on coming cars headlights are blocked by the crash barrier.

It seems like another arms race that car drivers are buying in to. Who really needs two grands worth of matrix LED lights on their commuter car? I don't know enough about them for this to be anything more than speculation but, how many of those one million mirrors in a Merc matrix light are still functional at 15 years old? Also, as 15 year old technology what would the replacement cost be? The idea that you can in the future write your car off by splatting a pheasant because it takes out a headlight seems crazy to me.

I'd think you would have a hard time finding one of those in good condition at 15+ years old. LEDs do burn out after a while, especially high powered ones and you can't just replace them. If you swap it for another one of similar age it's probably also nearing EOL.

I see quite a few (mostly on older Teslas for some reason) which have dimmed or non-working headlights/DRLs now. The owners are going to have to fork out for an entire new lamp or fail the next MOT, ouch.

 

[deviation]

Or that a lot of towns replaced street lights with LEDs a few years back, which are now already reaching the end of their life and flashing like a strobe :/

Since 2006'ish, they've been turned off at a certain time, in said areas. IIRC around 9PM. Which is ridiculous. What makes it worse, is these are coastal areas with loads of mist/fog where they're next to the beaches.
But hey, apparently it's going to save the planet

 

[Rroff]

Also on the dual carriageway they are a menace, flipping to mains the second an on coming cars headlights are blocked by the crash barrier.

I never just fire and forget auto-dipping lights personally - the technology just isn't there, I always manually switch them to dipped if another car is coming on a dual-carriageway and manually move them back to main beams, I use the auto-dipping as a backup in case I forget or busy having to concentrate on something else, etc. which leads to another serious problem - most auto-dipping systems do not immediately put the main beams on when you move to the main beam position!!! absolutely moronic, some are near instant but a lot of cars especially mid 2010s there is a delay of 1-5 seconds, sometimes more, the system should always respect the user input and immediately switch high beams on when manually switched with a grace period of a few seconds for hysteresis before resuming auto-dipping.

EDIT: The other annoying thing is that on several vehicles, not sure how widespread it is in general, the auto-dipping is tied into the auto-lights and you can't have one without the other auto-lights is just way too useful to not be using.

 

[bigmike20vt]

That was the joke

AHH ok (it's pre coffee!)

 

[[TW]Fox]

Clear enough, yes, but it wasn't especially comfortable.

That is a surprise as I've always found someone driving towards you with full beam on to be distracting and dazzling regardless of the lighting technology. It was dangerous in 2002 and its dangerous today. I don't understand how you were able to see clearly as an oncoming car drove at you with full beam on?

No.
As I have already stated, it's not every car. Just the ones with massively bright lights.

But I don't crash and die every time one of these pricks drives past me, so it's just my perception and not actually dangerous, right?

I'm just trying to understand what the issue is - I drive at night and I don't find this massive problem everywhere some people do. I find issues with people who drive towards you with full beam on and who either don't care or forget to switch it off, but then this has always been an issue.

 

[bigmike20vt]

This thread has genuinely got me tempted to get my wife to go out in my car and me go out in hers and do some drive by experiments with my auto dimming lights on, as well as her follow me for a bit.

unfortunately my wife already thinks i am a sad b...ard and will likely tell me to sod off

 

[[TW]Fox]

most auto-dipping systems do not immediately put the main beams on when you move to the main beam position!!! absolutely moronic, some are near instant but a lot of cars especially mid 2010s there is a delay of 1-5 seconds, sometimes more

I can't think of a single system I have used that operates like this. Many of them have a completely different process for switching automatic high beam assistance on and off and switching high beam on and off - on my car for example you move the stalk forward to switch the high beam on, the automatic system is a seperate switch. It'll always respond immediatly just like any other car.

I think there are a number of issues being confused as one here.

People who drive around without bothering to switch full beam off when required - this is a problem but has always been a problem. It's nothing new.

People who drive around with faulty and/or misaligned headlights. These are broken, they require fixing. Not much more to say here is there?

The performance of basic high beam assistant which simply switches high beam on or off. I don't see the purpose behind these and as people say they can be slow to react. I had this on a 530d years ago and rarely used it because it just wasn't helpful. The one benefit of this system is that it helps prevent the first problem I listed.

The performance of advanced matrix style high beam systems. Personally I think these are the single greatest step forward in lighting technology in decades. They generally work very well in my experience, but they are nothing like as common as people think and it's difficult to tell whether an oncoming car has this system or not, so I suspect many people blinded by the people who don't bother switching a normal high beam headlight off are mistaken for cars with this system fitted.

I see people complaining about laser lighting systems which to me further highlights that some people are simply confusing all of the different systems and are unsure what it is they are trying to complain about. My car has laser lights as well, but the laser will not operate unless a long list of parameters are met. The practical implication of this is that unless its 3am, you're 5 miles from the nearest inhabited building and there hasn't been a car along the same road in about 2 months, the laser is not going to activate. When it does, it's excellent, but I think the number of times I've ever actually seen it work is very low. It just isn't routinely operated, oncoming traffic will never see it and this is probably why it's been abandoned as a technology going forward. Yet plenty of people complain about them...

 

[Rroff]

That is a surprise as I've always found someone driving towards you with full beam on to be distracting and dazzling regardless of the lighting technology. It was dangerous in 2002 and its dangerous today. I don't understand how you were able to see clearly as an oncoming car drove at you with full beam on?

What you didn't tend to get in 2002 was people with headlights so bright that it more than momentarily dazzled you with vision quickly recovering once they'd passed, while I wouldn't say it is common there is an increase lately of full beams which do leave your vision serious compromised beyond a few moments - if I do say a couple of hours drive along the A30 I will encounter at least one instance of it per trip.

 

[bigmike20vt]

What you didn't tend to get in 2002 was people with headlights so bright that it more than momentarily dazzled you with vision quickly recovering once they'd passed, while I wouldn't say it is common there is an increase lately of full beams which do leave your vision serious compromised beyond a few moments - if I do say a couple of hours drive along the A30 I will encounter at least one instance of it per trip.

ok this is an interesting point and IF accurate kind of proves that it isnt the LED technology to blame per se ... because i think it can be considered almost 100% certain that you would will have encountered more than one person with LED auto dipping lights in that time.

LED lights may well exacerbate badly aligned headlights, and they may mean a driver who drives around all night on full beam will be more of a danger than if they had old bulbs........... but the underlying issue imo in your experience you mentioned is still most likely the meat sack behind the wheel not the lights themselves.

 

[Rroff]

I can't think of a single system I have used that operates like this. Many of them have a completely different process for switching automatic high beam assistance on and off and switching high beam on and off - on my car for example you move the stalk forward to switch the high beam on, the automatic system is a seperate switch. It'll always respond immediatly just like any other car.

I think we are talking a bit at cross purposes here - most vehicles I drive either have a rotary switch by your knee or a rotating collar switch on the stalk for off, side/DRL, headlights and auto and then you move the stalk forward for main beams, but most of them don't have separate functionality for high beam assistance and ambient light based auto light function. When you move the stalk forward with auto-dipping enabled in 9 out of 10 vehicles it doesn't instantly enable high-beam but waits for the system to analyse the scene which can be anywhere from near instant to a few seconds which in my opinion is very bad. Some newer cars the response is a bit better but even that is hit and miss - the cheaper Chinese brands are often terrible for it.

 

[Rroff]

ok this is an interesting point and IF accurate kind of proves that it isnt the LED technology to blame per se ... because i think it can be considered almost 100% certain that you would will have encountered more than one person with LED auto dipping lights in that time.

LED lights may well exacerbate badly aligned headlights, and they may mean a driver who drives around all night on full beam will be more of a danger than if they had old bulbs........... but the underlying issue imo in your experience you mentioned is still most likely the meat sack behind the wheel not the lights themselves.

I'm not going to pretend to know what the reason is.

We actually had an instance the other day where a driver at work, who is actually an experienced mechanic, changed the headlight bulbs as one had gone and the other was looking a bit sad, and we fairly randomly happened to check the beam pattern against the loading bay door and noticed something odd - he'd managed to put one of the bulbs in upside down and on main beams it was very dazzling at eye level. To be fair he was working mostly in the dark in a vehicle designed by a muppet without enough space to properly work on the headlights.

 

[squerble]

I'm not going to pretend to know what the reason is.

We actually had an instance the other day where a driver at work, who is actually an experienced mechanic, changed the headlight bulbs as one had gone and the other was looking a bit sad, and we fairly randomly happened to check the beam pattern against the loading bay door and noticed something odd - he'd managed to put one of the bulbs in upside down and on main beams it was very dazzling at eye level. To be fair he was working mostly in the dark in a vehicle designed by a muppet without enough space to properly work on the headlights.

I'd love to know what bulbs were being fitted. The last few halogen bulbs I fitted all had three prongs that were NOT equally spaced and so the bulb could only fit one way.


EDIT: I accidentally blinded someone with my BMW the other day as I didn't realise that to turn the main beam off you PULL the stalk back (as though you were flashing) to disable main beam. Every car I've had previously basically had a main beam toggle, where pushing it enabled it, and you had to push again to disable. This of course only applies to the stalks which were sprung, not the really old ones that stayed in place in the pushed position and were pulled back to return - it seems the BMW way makes more sense based on the "old" way of doing it, but it caught me out. Also luckily, High Beam Assist is a £200 purchase in the BMW app that I shall never do

 

[Rroff]

I'd love to know what bulbs were being fitted. The last few halogen bulbs I fitted all had three prongs that were NOT equally spaced and so the bulb could only fit one way.


EDIT: I accidentally blinded someone with my BMW the other day as I didn't realise that to turn the main beam off you PULL the stalk back (as though you were flashing) to disable main beam. Every car I've had previously basically had a main beam toggle, where pushing it enabled it, and you had to push again to disable. This of course only applies to the stalks which were sprung, not the really old ones that stayed in place in the pushed position and were pulled back to return - it seems the BMW way makes more sense based on the "old" way of doing it, but it caught me out.

I can't actually remember but I'm 99% sure it was H7s on a 2020 Ford Transit - I do remember the struggle I had to fix the problem due to the lack of space to work with.

EDIT: Not sure on the brand but work being work it would be some super cheap noname brand bulbs.

 

[mattyg]

What you didn't tend to get in 2002 was people with headlights so bright that it more than momentarily dazzled you with vision quickly recovering once they'd passed, while I wouldn't say it is common there is an increase lately of full beams which do leave your vision serious compromised beyond a few moments - if I do say a couple of hours drive along the A30 I will encounter at least one instance of it per trip.

You are 23 years older now though so you vision will not be as good as it was. So is it the lights or your vision thats the issue

 

[Kenai]

I think we are talking a bit at cross purposes here - most vehicles I drive either have a rotary switch by your knee or a rotating collar switch on the stalk for off, side/DRL, headlights and auto and then you move the stalk forward for main beams, but most of them don't have separate functionality for high beam assistance and ambient light based auto light function. When you move the stalk forward with auto-dipping enabled in 9 out of 10 vehicles it doesn't instantly enable high-beam but waits for the system to analyse the scene which can be anywhere from near instant to a few seconds which in my opinion is very bad. Some newer cars the response is a bit better but even that is hit and miss - the cheaper Chinese brands are often terrible for it.

I don't think you're talking at cross purposes, there are distinct ways manufacturers implement things like HBA - I think in the three cars in our household, there's three slightly different approaches. BMW - pushing stalk forward to activate high beam, press button on stalk to activate HBA. Cupra - if the lights are in Auto, then HBA/Matrix will be active when you activate high beam. Toyota - there's a button on the lower dash that enables/disables HBA.

 

[mattyg]

I don't think you're talking at cross purposes, there are distinct ways manufacturers implement things like HBA - I think in the three cars in our household, there's three slightly different approaches. BMW - pushing stalk forward to activate high beam, press button on stalk to activate HBA. Cupra - if the lights are in Auto, then HBA/Matrix will be active when you activate high beam. Toyota - there's a button on the lower dash that enables/disables HBA.

it about 7 button presses to get it on with my M5 4 years on and i still change the dash information whilst trying to turn on HBA.

 

[Rroff]

I don't think you're talking at cross purposes, there are distinct ways manufacturers implement things like HBA - I think in the three cars in our household, there's three slightly different approaches. BMW - pushing stalk forward to activate high beam, press button on stalk to activate HBA. Cupra - if the lights are in Auto, then HBA/Matrix will be active when you activate high beam. Toyota - there's a button on the lower dash that enables/disables HBA.

I can't recall off the top of my head driving any vehicle with a separate HBA button or function - at least 90% of the vehicles HBA is integrated with the auto headlight position.

EDIT: From Googling it some of the Fords do have an option buried in the infotainment system to enable/disable HBA with auto lights, I don't think the others do - I know my Nissans for definite don't.

 

[bigmike20vt]

IF we are gonna talk about banning lights because people dont use them properly... .can we ban rear fog lights as well? **

people using them willy nilly i find far more distracting than any headlight issues!

**not being entirely serious but they do wind me up!.