Vortez review of Silver Arrow SB-E Extreme

[doyll]

I'm not saying his testing isn't accurate but.... Without being able to see the data I have no way of verifying they are accurate.

It is very hard to compare water cooling with air cooling in a case.

Comparing a H100 that keeps all hot air seperate from cool by using the case as the divider is putting the air coolers at an unfair disadvantage in my book.

To compare them equally both have to be drawing air from inside of case and air coolers need exhaust ducted out of case. If the air cooler exhaust is not ducted out of case some of the cooler exhaust air will be mixing with cooler intake air... and as the exhaust is hotter than intake it will keep increasing CPU temp.. and instead of peaking in 3-6 minutes might take 15 minutes.. or longer... to reach peak temp.

Testing will be based on temperatures recorded by Real Temp after 20 passes of LinX stress test. The maximum absolute temperatures will be recorded after the test and averaged over the 6 cores.

How long does it take to run 20 passes of LinX on an Intel Core i7-3930K (3.6GHz)?

 

[mishima]

If platform changed how can they be compared on a single graph? My understanding of comparison testing is all are tested on same platform, conditions, temps, humidity, etc.

You stated this in review, I quoted it, now you state it again. If platforms changed even passive testing will give different results due to different air movement. I would like to see the reviews on each cooler to see just how close the conditions and platforms were. Any variance in test perimeters change results.

The CPU coolers found in the graph have already been tested on another platform. They have already been reviewed and given an award so rather than review the cooler again in another article the cooler was tested again but now on the new platform and added to a new graph.... on LGA2011 platform test rig.

Can you please give us links to the reviews of each of these coolers?

http://www.vortez.net/articles_pages/alpenfoehn_gotthard_review,1.html
http://www.vortez.net/articles_pages/noctua_nh_d14_se2011_review,1.html
http://www.vortez.net/articles_pages/thermalright_silver_arrow_sb_e_extreme_review,1.html

How long does it take to run 20 passes of LinX on an Intel Core i7-3930K (3.6GHz)?

A single run with 20 passes usually takes approx. 1hr 50m.

 

[doyll]

Thanks mishima

I assume the H100 was mounted in in the top?

Was it pulling air into or pushing our out of the 500R?

What is the fan configuration in 500R? The include 200mm side panel fan, two front-mounted 120mm fans, and one rear 120mm fan?

What speed were the case fans running during these tests?

Was H100 mounted in top of 500R?

Was H100 drawing air into or pushing air out of case?

What was the ambient temperature of cooler intake air inside of case compared to ambient temp outside of case at start, 10 minutes in, 20 minutes in, etc. during each of these tests?

I'm betting the ambient cooler intake was much higher during all air cooler runs than on it was during H100 run.. probably in the 8-10c range

What orientation were coolers in during passive test? What were case fans doing during passive tests?

Did you try doing a passive test on H100 with only pump running but not fans?

Here is a video review of H100, SA SB-E and SA SB-E Extreme
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6xrsuPwDbo
jump in to 3:40 for results

i7 3820 @4.75GHz
Temperature is delta.

H100 . . . . . . . . 41c 2500rpm. . . . . . . . 55dBA 2
SA SB-E . . . . . . 42c 1000rpm & 1300rpm 38dBA TY-150 & TY-141
SA SB-E Extreme 34c 2500rpm. . . . . . . . 56dBA 2x TY-143

How is it that SA SB-E Extreme is 7c cooler than H100 in this test and in yours H100 is 1.5c cooler than SA SB-E Extreme? Is it the result of cooler intake air temp / case temp increasing during air cooler tests and not increasing during H100 test because H100 is not mixing cooling air?

Please let me know your thoughts on these things.

 

[mishima]

I assume the H100 was mounted in in the top?

Due to UP4 heatsinks the radiator had to sit inside the top cavity, whilst the fans were installed at the top but on the inside of the case.

Was it pulling air into or pushing our out of the 500R?

Pushing out.

What is the fan configuration in 500R? The include 200mm side panel fan, two front-mounted 120mm fans, and one rear 120mm fan?

Side fan is not connected - dual 120mm fans at front are set to high via FC and rear exhaust runs @ 1200RPM. Top HDD cage is removed.

What speed were the case fans running during these tests?

As per above.

Was H100 mounted in top of 500R?

As per above

Was H100 drawing air into or pushing air out of case?

As per above. (these questions are duplicates!)

What was the ambient temperature of cooler intake air inside of case compared to ambient temp outside of case at start, 10 minutes in, 20 minutes in, etc. during each of these tests?

For which review?

What orientation were coolers in during passive test? What were case fans doing during passive tests?

The same as they were during stock and overclocked and as per pictures of cooler on motherboard, case within each review. Case fans were the same also.

How is it that SA SB-E Extreme is 7c cooler than H100 in this test and in yours H100 is 1.5c cooler than SA SB-E Extreme? Is it the result of cooler intake air temp / case temp increasing during air cooler tests and not increasing during H100 test because H100 is not mixing cooling air?

I don't know - are they testing in a chassis? do they have a different airflow configuration as myself? Was the H100 mounted in a different way?

 

[doyll]

Side fan is not connected - dual 120mm fans at front are set to high via FC and rear exhaust runs @ 1200RPM. Top HDD cage is removed.

That means 2x 120mm intake fans (1 behind Hdd cage) and 1x rear exhaust trying to supply cool air to air coolers. Now I understand why they ran so much hotter than H100.

As per above.

As per above

As per above. (these questions are duplicates!)

I asked them several times in previous posts with no answer.

For which review?

In all of the reviews please. As it directly effects CPU temp.

I don't know - are they testing in a chassis? do they have a different airflow configuration as myself? Was the H100 mounted in a different way?

If you look at review you will see they were tested on an open test platform. All receive same ambient intake air so all are cooling with same air temp.

Hypothesis:
In your tests the cooler intake air on all air coolers was 8-10c hotter than H100 intake air after first 10-20 minutes of your tests. (as I said before) 2x 120mm intake fans (one behind HDD cage) and one 120mm exhaust cannot exchange case air fast enough to remove all of the hot air cooler exhaust. (cooler fans move more cfm than exhaust fan) The excess hot air is recirculating inside of case. Result is intake air to coolers increases 8-10c during stress test and your results for air coolers is therefore much higher than they would be if case was actually providing cool air to coolers. H100 is exhausting all hot exhaust out top so none is recirculating in case. As a result the case temperature rises very little.

Synopsis:
Your test platform (500R) is optimized for H100 and other water coolers but not for air coolers.

 

[Aruffell]

Ha really? Who do you deliver for?



Absolutely. Manufacturers only want to see an award at the end of the day and review sites just want the most views through exclusive hardware so you get very few sites which write reviews reliably. Most sites have some sort of agenda I found. OC3D tends to like showing off exclusive hardware and if they get them late when others have already reviewed that component, they'll write an article that will try and grab attention (NZXT H2 and Silver Arrow). Eteknix, on the other hand always want hardware to keep and will award the components based on that. Vortez generally will be honest but there have been a few articles where results look odd and the reviewers will fail to investigate why. A lot of reviewers you will find are not actually technically minded either and will simply run tests without discussing results, something anyone can do.

I'm sorry but I fell off my chair as that is truly laughable.

So you are saying, us at eTeknix award things based on if we get to keep them?

We keep everything, and not everything gets an award. Do you even work for a review site any more? As other forums suggest a major falling out with the one you used to "as you put it" own/run?

Really is laughable ha. Funny how we're the only review site (other than the big corporates) who can afford to go to every event around the world (Computex, CES etc...).

Welcome to the world of business my friend.

 

[Kaapstad]

I'm sorry but I fell off my chair as that is truly laughable.

So you are saying, us at eTeknix award things based on if we get to keep them?

We keep everything, and not everything gets an award. Do you even work for a review site any more? As other forums suggest a major falling out with the one you used to "as you put it" own/run?

Really is laughable ha. Funny how we're the only review site (other than the big corporates) who can afford to go to every event around the world (Computex, CES etc...).

Welcome to the world of business my friend.

I am not talking about your site but there are an awful lot of really c%$p reviews on some of the tech sites.

I was reading a review the other day about an i7 3970X and there were lots of benchmarks for it running at stock (who buys an EE CPU and runs it @stock). There was absolutely no information about how well it oced or how good the IMC is. These are the things someone buying that CPU really want/need to know.

Some of the tech sites really need to be more comprehensive/professional when they review stuff.

 

[Helios1234]

I'm sorry but I fell off my chair as that is truly laughable.

So you are saying, us at eTeknix award things based on if we get to keep them?

Yup, based on what a few contacts have told me with first hand experience of the matter.

We keep everything, and not everything gets an award. Do you even work for a review site any more? As other forums suggest a major falling out with the one you used to "as you put it" own/run?

Not sure how any of this is relevant to what I have personally seen over the years. And I have never said the latter part so I'm not sure where you're getting that from.

Really is laughable ha. Funny how we're the only review site (other than the big corporates) who can afford to go to every event around the world (Computex, CES etc...).

Welcome to the world of business my friend.

As you say, you think of reviewing as a business. It was never a business to me, I reviewed because I loved hardware and wanted to bring readers what they wanted to see, articles with integrity that can be trusted. I think I achieved that and that means more to me than getting paid dubiously to do it.

Reviewing wasn't my business, it was my hobby. My business is in an entirely different industry.

 

[Aruffell]

I am not talking about your site but there are an awful lot of really c%$p reviews on some of the tech sites.

I was reading a review the other day about an i7 3970X and there were lots of benchmarks for it running at stock (who buys an EE CPU and runs it @stock). There was absolutely no information about how well it oced or how good the IMC is. These are the things someone buying that CPU really want/need to know.

Some of the tech sites really need to be more comprehensive/professional when they review stuff.

I've seen sites review server/workstation boards and testing Crysis on it, whereas we reviewed it and ran Euler, and other 3D rendering tools and calculation tests etc...

Yup, based on what a few contacts have told me with first hand experience of the matter.

Not sure how any of this is relevant to what I have personally seen over the years. And I have never said the latter part so I'm not sure where you're getting that from.

As you say, you think of reviewing as a business. It was never a business to me, I reviewed because I loved hardware and wanted to bring readers what they wanted to see, articles with integrity that can be trusted. I think I achieved that and that means more to me than getting paid dubiously to do it.

Reviewing wasn't my business, it was my hobby. My business is in an entirely different industry.

You must have some bad contacts, as we work with all the brands in the industry, which is more than I can say about a certain site you was involved with who certain brands wouldn't touch with a barge pole. Power supply tests are still the best, involving a multimeter and running a game. On that note, if these sites were run as businesses, they could afford professional power supply testing load equipment, but then they probably wouldn't know how to use

Do you think Overclockers run their shop as a hobby? No they run it as a business, otherwise they wouldn't be doing as well as they are now.

What I do is a hobby, but if it didn't pay, I'd be stupid to stay doing it and would be forced to find other means. Simple fact.

 

[Helios1234]

You must have some bad contacts, as we work with all the brands in the industry, which is more than I can say about a certain site you was involved with who certain brands wouldn't touch with a barge pole. Power supply tests are still the best, involving a multimeter and running a game. On that note, if these sites were run as businesses, they could afford professional power supply testing load equipment, but then they probably wouldn't know how to use

Do you think Overclockers run their shop as a hobby? No they run it as a business, otherwise they wouldn't be doing as well as they are now.

What I do is a hobby, but if it didn't pay, I'd be stupid to stay doing it and would be forced to find other means. Simple fact.

Perhaps go talk to Mishima about some of those points.

Regarding contacts, is that why one of your guys was constantly asking me for some when I left thinking I'd actually give up the hard work the guys at Vortez have put into the site? Anyway, I'm not here to argue for Vortez. As always with you, you keep boasting about things which to me are fairly irrelevant. If it was my business, then I would have cared more about the financials but that was never my aim. The fact that people on this forum and many others trust my opinion and reviews is more than what I can ask for and your money can't buy that.

What I do is a hobby, but if it didn't pay, I'd be stupid to stay doing it and would be forced to find other means. Simple fact.

Wait, so you're saying if my hobby was to read books, do sports and other things, I have to make money out of it otherwise it's pointless? Reviewing isn't your hobby, getting free stuff and making a video of it being unboxed maybe...

 

[Aruffell]

Perhaps go talk to Mishima about some of those points.

Regarding contacts, is that why one of your guys was constantly asking me for some when I left thinking I'd actually give up the hard work the guys at Vortez have put into the site? Anyway, I'm not here to argue for Vortez. As always with you, you keep boasting about things which to me are fairly irrelevant. If it was my business, then I would have cared more about the financials but that was never my aim. The fact that people on this forum and many others trust my opinion and reviews is more than what I can ask for and your money can't buy that.

Wait, so you're saying if my hobby was to read books, do sports and other things, I have to make money out of it otherwise it's pointless? Reviewing isn't your hobby, getting free stuff and making a video of it being unboxed maybe...

I guess you don't keep with the times in terms of us not doing videos for a long old time.

One of my guys asking for contacts? Must be someone who doesn't work for me now, check Kitguru, a lot of my reviewers went there.

Seems like you are here to argue for them, though only a while ago you was ****ging them off on a competitor forum beginning with "A". You have to remember i'm good friends with the guy who pretty much designed Vortez and he certainly has some stories. It does seem you are very quick to dismiss every other review site out there as they don't test like you "did".

Didn't say you'd have to make money out of it, but when you're doing a hobby as a full-time think as a business, if you're not making money, you're not going to get far in life. Hence why we are a lot bigger than the likes of Vortez and other similar sites, so we must be doing something right.

 

[rjk]

take it elsewhere.

 

[Helios1234]

Lol, I'm not really sure where to start with your comments.

I guess you don't keep with the times in terms of us not doing videos for a long old time.

I think you missed my point entirely there.

One of my guys asking for contacts? Must be someone who doesn't work for me now, check Kitguru, a lot of my reviewers went there.

Nope, he still works for you.

Seems like you are here to argue for them, though only a while ago you was ****ging them off on a competitor forum beginning with "A".

I'm not really arguing for them. I know from my time there that Vortez had some great contacts and a very good reputation (you only have to read this very forum to see). I have commented on the ways some tests are done now which I'm not happy with and I haven't said anything differently on here than what I have on the other forum. I really have no idea what you mean by "****ging them off ". My only arguments have been related to how some tests were conducted which I've done on here as well, so I really don't understand how you think I'm bad mouthing them. Constructive criticism is not bad mouthing. Bad mouthing is what I do to eteknix so yeah get your story right.

You have to remember i'm good friends with the guy who pretty much designed Vortez and he certainly has some stories. It does seem you are very quick to dismiss every other review site out there as they don't test like you "did".

I'm pretty sure what he has to say about Vortez is on a personal matter with Mish rather than how the site was being run. Whereas with you, it's a different matter. I can list the stories here if you want...

And no, I don't dismiss reviews quickly, I just happen to read through results and testing methodologies thoroughly. I've learned to scrutinize work before accepting them. People do it to me and I do it to others. Being able to defend your work under the heaviest scrutiny is what make them reputable essentially. Do I really have to teach you the tricks of your trade? I'd do the same for your reviews, but frankly I don't read them.

Didn't say you'd have to make money out of it, but when you're doing a hobby as a full-time think as a business, if you're not making money, you're not going to get far in life.

I never did reviewing full-time, I work in the oil & gas sector and was previously doing my MSci.

Hence why we are a lot bigger than the likes of Vortez and other similar sites, so we must be doing something right.

How many people on ocuk have even heard of your site or even visit it regularly? I may not be affiliated to Vortez anymore (and I really have no idea why you're trying to justify yourself to me when I have nothing to do with it now) but it's still good to see people referring to them regularly when browsing forums.

That's my last post regarding the matter, if you have a problem, speak to me privately. I'm likely gonna ignore it.

 

[ScottiB]

Absolutely. Manufacturers only want to see an award at the end of the day and review sites just want the most views through exclusive hardware so you get very few sites which write reviews reliably..

isn't this an extremely cynical view and quite a harsh generalisation? We aren't all like that, surely?

We've spoken a number of times about my belief that the quality of the review outweighs the result & it's the sheer content of the Vortez reviews why I often offer them the first look at a new product. I'm not judged on the number of awards I gain but the number of reviews.

If no reviewer ever criticised a product then the manufacturers wouldn't gain the feedback that they need to improve it. Nothing much has changed since your new job restricted your free time. David is finding it hard (impossible?) to replace you due to the mountain of stuff he's asked to look at.

Come on guys, stop bickering. You may have differing views on what your readers want to see and how best to compare products (& I'm sure that most readers of this realise that cooler are possibly the most complicated & difficult component to review accurately) but I know you all well enough to know that you are solid, honest, honorable people.

 

[Helios1234]

You're right, MSI is one of the few manufacturers who I liked dealing with because you actually take feedback into consideration and you're one of the few reps who is technically minded. A lot of others aren't.

 

[rjk]

Guys.

The simple fact of the matter is this.

I have told you to cut it out, you have carried on. The Overclockers UK forums is not a place to air your dirty laundry and I will not allow this to carry on.

Helios1234, please refrain from discrediting review sites publicly on our forums. For a normal forum member, this would not be an issue but the fact that you have worked in the industry means you have inside knowledge [be it true or otherwise] that has potentially damaging effects on sites that partner with OcUK.
you are entitled to your opinion but please use your own discretion as to what is acceptable.

Aruffell, dont rise to it. eteknix.com is a superb site but please, as an ambassador for your site, don't drag it through the dirt by mud slinging on a public forum. Its not professional and the OcUK forums should not be used as a soap box to publicise an argument like this.
Your site does well on its own merits, ignore the haters


This is the final word on the matter, please do not make me have to address the topic again.

 

[ubersonic]

Here is a video review of H100, SA SB-E and SA SB-E Extreme
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6xrsuPwDbo
jump in to 3:40 for results

i7 3820 @4.75GHz
Temperature is delta.

H100 . . . . . . . . 41c 2500rpm. . . . . . . . 55dBA 2
SA SB-E . . . . . . 42c 1000rpm & 1300rpm 38dBA TY-150 & TY-141
SA SB-E Extreme 34c 2500rpm. . . . . . . . 56dBA 2x TY-143

How is it that SA SB-E Extreme is 7c cooler than H100 in this test and in yours H100 is 1.5c cooler than SA SB-E Extreme?

Its actually quite simple, because that test uses an i7 3820 whereas theirs uses a i7 3930K. SB-E hex core is known to favour water over air unlike SB/SB-E quad which isn't really fussed. When you have six SB-E cores lighting up the cooling system if becomes less of an issue of the fans clearing the heat from the fins and more of an issue of the heatpipes getting the heat off the contact plate to the fins so the fans can do their job, its in this scenario that water cooling (even AIW) starts to pull away from air as the water can get the heat off the CPU faster.

 

[doyll]

Its actually quite simple, because that test uses an i7 3820 whereas theirs uses a i7 3930K. SB-E hex core is known to favour water over air unlike SB/SB-E quad which isn't really fussed. When you have six SB-E cores lighting up the cooling system if becomes less of an issue of the fans clearing the heat from the fins and more of an issue of the heatpipes getting the heat off the contact plate to the fins so the fans can do their job, its in this scenario that water cooling (even AIW) starts to pull away from air as the water can get the heat off the CPU faster.

Interesting hypothesis. Can you show me data / give me links to data showing this?

Yes it is quite simple.

In mishima's tests the H100 has none of the heated exhaust air mixing with the cool intake air to radiator. The air coolers are closed up inside of case with heated exhaust air mixing with cooler intake air which means cooler intake air heats up during the 20-30 minute load test..

The PC-Cooling video review gives all coolers same air temp in through entire load test.

Neither review is real world testing unless you have a Corsair Carbide 500R setup as mishima's is.

In an open air test rig we can at least see how well the coolers perform without other variables. Yes, the CPU chip is still a veritable. But a much smaller one than limiting testing to a single case setup.

I would like to see reviews of coolers based on what their intake air temp is and not just what the room temp is. Recording room temperature and cooler intake temperature is a test of case performance. CPU temp would then show us how well the cooler actually performs.. and not just how the combination of cooler and case perform.

If mishima monitored both cooler intake temp and room ambient we would know how much of the CPU temp was because of cooler and how much was because of rising case temp above ambient during tests.


I do agree a good H2O heat sink is very good at transferring CPU heat to coolant and with a good pump and radiator is best cooling system, but so far only custom H2O are much better than best air... at the moment.

Water cooling has been around a long time in many applications. Heat pipe cooling is a relatively new technology and is still advancing rapidly. Current CLC H2O might be 1-2c better than air, but review data is too erratic to say for sure.

I expect CLC to keep improving but so will heat pipe coolers.