Is anyone happy with F1?

[Skeeter]

Why not fix the aerodynamic wake?

How? (That's a genuine question, rather than just a dig). GP2 and GP3 have far lower levels of down force than F1 and they both suffer from the same issues of being unable to follow closely. GP3 suffered so badly from boring races that Kimi spent a day testing various modifications to stop the series descending into processions. WSR have had to adopt a DRS style system as well to counteract the inherent issues with winged cars.

The idea that gets suggested a lot is to just reduce the amount of down force F1 cars have, but the lower series having the same issue shows its not as simple as that. If you dropped F1 down force to GP2 levels you would have the same problems, just the cars would corner slower.

Its one of those catch 22's. Cars designed to manipulate the air to corner fast will struggle to follow other cars closely. Slip streaming works best when the front of the cars are like barn doors, punching massive holes in the air for the guy behind to benefit from. And when mechanical grip is as important, if not more important, than aerodynamic grip.

You could go really radical and follow the Delta Wing example (a personal favourate of mine, well, until Nissan killed it, stole it, and the turned it into a fraud) and push ground effects. But if 70's ground effect technology was making cars to fast to drive, what do you think 2014's aero boffins would be able to do with it!

The whole nature of single seaters makes it very hard to eliminate wake.

 

[this_is_gav]

One thing I have noticed since I started following F1 is that the hotter the weather, the worse the racing. Clearly it's not that simple, but with the less dense air it appears the cars are even more sensitive to aerodynamic imbalance than on a cooler day. Other factors may also be at play, such as tyres being unable to get into their operating temperature as easily on a cooler day, but to my eyes it's something that seems to have invariably been the case over the the past two decades.

Can anyone remember a poor race on a cold day?

Perhaps all F1 has to do is move races away from their summers (except Silverstone, where summer is cold anyway).

 

[MooMoo444]

I wish they'd come up with a way to stop the dirty air/turbulence syndrome. We've all seen times where someone has the faster car but is forced to suck it up and drift back to preserve their own equipment.

Actually when I say 'times', it's usually several times a race.

 

[JRS]

I wish they'd come up with a way to stop the dirty air/turbulence syndrome

They have. It's called ground effect.

 

[Skeeter]

They have. It's called ground effect.

Neeeowwww.

 

[Indy500]

How?

Ground effect. Winged cars can follow each other closely just fine with the appropriate balance between aero\mechanical grip. Not sure about Formula Nippon, but pretty much every car type in the Indycar ladder can manage it.

 

[Skeeter]

I thought IndyCars in road circuit aero spec suffered the same wake problem? They have humoungous rear wings so you would expect them to generate a mess of air behind them.

In oval spec sure, but they have much lower down force in that spec.

 

[Indy500]

I thought IndyCars in road circuit aero spec suffered the same wake problem? They have humoungous rear wings so you would expect them to generate a mess of air behind them

Not to the same extent as F1. If that was the case, they would not be able to pass on most circuits since those are rather narrow compared to Tilkedromes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=cOZ-8QZ_YMQ#t=1367

 

[Skeeter]

Ah ok. I suppose they also benefit from it being a single make series. They can build it into the designs of the cars to allow them to follow closely, which isn't a control that FIA have over F1. Mercedes can't build their car to work well in the wake of an RBR, for example. And RBR are hardly going to work towards minimising the wake they produce for the benefit of people following them, are they

The way to win in F1 is make your car incredibly fast in clean air (Qualifying), and then really difficult to follow for anyone behind you (Race). The whole ethos of a competitive aero formula promotes creating a destructive wake, rather than working to reduce it.

Of course it would help if any efforts the FIA did make to control it weren't a complete farce , but thats a different matter.

Also, that Barber track looks pretty good. I know the Yanks get a lot of stick about only being able to drive in circles, but they do have some pretty epic racetracks in the States.

 

[Indy500]

Mercedes can't build their car to work well in the wake of an RBR, for example. And RBR are hardly going to work towards minimising the wake they produce for the benefit of people following them, are they

Aerodynamic development is in the pipeline, so we'll see if that changes the situation.

The way to win in F1 is make your car incredibly fast in clean air (Qualifying), and then really difficult to follow for anyone behind you (Race). The whole ethos of a competitive aero formula promotes creating a destructive wake, rather than working to reduce it.

Perhaps, but that doesn't explain your observation that the single-make GP2 and GP3 series have the same problem.

Also, that Barber track looks pretty good. I know the Yanks get a lot of stick about only being able to drive in circles, but they do have some pretty epic racetracks in the States.

It's FIA grade 1T, despite the narrow width (it was conceived for motorcycle racing). There are plenty of good non-ovals in the US, Road America for example - and Nascar actually runs that one it's just that people don't take the time to look them up.

 

[Skeeter]

The issue exists in all winged formulas. The extent of the problem is just amplified by F1 being competitive in chassis design. The FIA could do a lot to help though, they have just failed thus far.

I really hope that USC works and survives, mainly because it has some great tracks on its calendar.

 

[JRS]

There are plenty of good non-ovals in the US

I think I once posted a (non-exhaustive but still reasonable) list of non-oval 'mer'can race circuits ages ago as a rebuttal to one of the usual ramblings about 'nurr US drivers don't turn right therefore they are teh suck nurr'. Will see if I can find it.

***edit***

A cursory glance at my own posting history turned up this one - not the one I was on about, but it does list some of my favourites. In particular, Miller Motorsports Park - great circuit, and some of the best corner names in the business. Much better than lazily naming chicanes after Senna or Clark....

Heh, the corner list in order from Wiki:

Its corner names (in order) are Sunset Bend, Dreamboat, Work Out, Scream, Black Rock Hairpin, Right Hook, Knock Out, Demon, Devil, Diablo, Indecision, Precision, Fast, Faster, Gotcha, Mabey Y'll Makit, Satisfaction, Agony, Ecstasy, 1st Attitude, 2nd Attitude, Bad Attitude, Tooele Turn, Kink, Club House Corner, Wind-Up, and Release.

 

[Skeeter]

Ha, Amazing!

 

[SKILL]

I like "Fast, Faster, Gotcha", I hope the corners live up to the names

From iRacing I've got to experience some of the American tracks and there's a lot to like, Virginia International Raceway is probably my favourite on there, on the corner names it's got one named after a female dog...

 

[Indy500]

In particular, Miller Motorsports Park

Nice track, but the location isn't great for drawing a crowd. It seems to be used more for testing than racing.

Here's some AMA Superbike action though: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7hqTxC8LGA

 

[cuke2u]

I am happy with F1, aside from the lack of testing, as I was back in the '80's. I know it is a money thing but the need to let the teams test more, then we probably wouldn't have the tyre debacle...

 

[Andrew Moore]

I watch MotoGP or the BTCC and events instead now. The racing is much better, its bumper to bumper for the touring cars and the bike take the racing to the absolute max, chins on the floor any everything. Much better than the F1 at the moment.

 

[Irish_Tom]

I've resisted posting in this thread until now because I've been thinking it over for a while.

The short answer is no, I'm not happy with F1 at the moment. The reason is mainly down to the lack of competition at the front. RBR's domination this year (especially in the second half of the season) has made every race an inevitable outcome before FP1. That's not a dig at RBR, it's frustration with the rest of the teams for not being competitive.

The battles further down the field have been marginally entertaining but even then, everything has felt a bit sterile. We want to see the best drivers in the world going flat out, wheel-to-wheel in the best cars in the world for two hours every Sunday; not 19 cars managing tyres and fuel for the whole race.

Even though Vettel and RBR have won the last four years in a row I was quite happy with F1 in 2010 and 2012 because it was a close-run thing. 2010 could have been Ferrari's year and 2012 could have been McLaren's. If those results hadn't gone RBR's way then I think F1's recent history would feel a lot less one-sided, even if this season and 2011 remained a whitewash.

The question is; how do you have an open spec formula and keep the cars within a couple of seconds of each other over the course of two hours?

Tyres and the two-compound rule, aero and ground effect, DRS, to refuel or not to refuel, mandatory pitstops etc. Everything they try and do to increase competitiveness has a negative affect elsewhere and it seems that if you solve one problem, you open up another.

I honestly don't have have the answer. I keep thinking it over a end up going around in circles.

 

[Skeeter]

That's not a dig at RBR, it's frustration with the rest of the teams for not being competitive.

I'm glad that quite a few people are coming around to this viewpoint. Its up to McLaren/Ferrari/etc to step up.

Everything they try and do to increase competitiveness has a negative affect elsewhere and it seems that if you solve one problem, you open up another.

I would argue that they aren't actually solving many problems, while creating loads.

There is a massive lack of commitment behind the FIAs decisions. Everything seems half baked or watered down. They voluntarily lie down and let the teams walk all over them far to much.

 

[Guerrilla]

There is a massive lack of commitment behind the FIAs decisions. Everything seems half baked or watered down. They voluntarily lie down and let the teams walk all over them far to much.

It does seem a total farce sometimes... I get the impression they are hoping for close racing next season then they can take all the credit with these changes...

Let's be honest though people wouldn't really care what the current rules and regs were if the racing was decent, but at the moment we seem to have silly rules and non competative racing.