Hatred for DRL's

[Sgt_Pepper]

I wish I had DRL's on my car, it would mean I didn't have to drive round with my fogs on.

 

[86JR]

There are lots - mobile phones for example. Numerous EU laws have made mobile phone call charges far cheaper than ever before.

That is one example. More examples needed please!

 

[[TW]Fox]

Distance Selling Regulations? We could go on for ages. There is loads of good the EU has done. There is loads of bad, too, but to say it's all bad is just misinformed.

 

[ttaskmaster]

But what you are saying refers to headlights being on, how can sidelights or DRL's be classed as an 'aggressive move'?

Displaying lights, be it flashing your headlights or having them on, is described in the Highway Code as a method for announcing your presence to other drivers. If you do this in broad daylight when most people can see you perfectly clearly, it is regarded as unnecessary and perceived the same as shouting OR TYPING IN CAPS. You're effectively getting in their face about it.
I was a participant in two of the DRL studies they ran here in the UK. That was one of the things that came to light. Another was that drivers take on average one third of a second to check for oncoming traffic before pulling out - "Looked but did not see" is a common statement written on Police accident reports - Not 'could not' but 'did not'. It's got to the point where we need to have adverts TELLING people to 'look out for bikes', which they should have learned when they first got their licence.

Same for alignment, this only refers to main headlights

Dunno about yours, but none of my vehicles have ever had separate adjusters for side and headlights. It's all one contained unit with one reflector and one lens. Where one points, they all point pretty much.

I don't ever see anyone driving with their main headlights on in the day time.

I've lived in Reading, Harrow, Aylesbury, London, Watford, and ridden to many places throughout the UK. I've seen headlights on during all manner of broad daylights just about everywhere I've been.
I've seen it done accidentally and on purpose, the latter more often from white vans and Range Rovers who DO want to big themselves up and be intimidating on the road (because actually being big still isn't enough...), although BMW drivers are another common one!

On the biker argument, how do you know the car only has one driver in it? What about the three kids and the wife?

OK, fine - So you pull out on me and I instead plough through your rear passenger window, killing one of your kids and leaving the other horribly disfigured for the rest of their lives... Makes no difference to me - Either way, I'll still be dead and won't give a flying fig. In fact, a bike my size could potentially take out all four of you.
For every 1-4 lives you save with DRLs, you potentially lose 6-15.

Should I not drive with any lights on then to try and start a trend for other car drivers to follow, so they don't pull out on any bikers?

Ooh, would you mind? That'd be awfully helpful!
Bikes, cycles and pedestrians are "harder to see" because they're less common on the road - People expect to see big box shapes on wheels all the time, but for some reason don't expect different profiles.

But no, drive with your lights on if you want. Just know and be happy that your 'safety' is coming at the expense of someone else's... and that the same someone else might suddenly be arriving in the car next to you, bleeding out over your nice upholstry.

Last time I read the stats, 87% of bike accidents (up 1% from the previous year) involving another vehicle occurred because a car (not a van or truck) pulled out from a side road or roundabout entrance in front of a bike.
Typically the driver misjudged the speed of the oncoming bike and thought they had time. I've been pulled out on several times - Each time I saw the driver look directly at me all the while they were beginning to move and only hit the brakes at the very last minute, stopping right in my line. If I'd not been paying attention, they'd have been hit.

As it was, I was instead rear-ended by a driver doing 60-odd, when I was not even moving and was displaying very bright brake and indicator lights - Right in front of her eyes and she couldn't even see that.

I suppose while I'm doing that it's ok for a lorry to pull out on me, perhaps because he didn't see me as easy as he would if I had had my lights on?

Yes - because it's all YOUR fault that he is not looking properly and it's all YOUR fault that circumstances did not favour your being visually distinctive enough... right?
I guess that, like us bikers, you should also accept the inevitability that someone's inattentiveness will kill you... right?

Try this - Sell your stupid black car and buy a nice safe one that is painted stripey hi-viz yellow, orange and pink, drive around with loud exhausts and eighteen flashy lights on... and still expect to get mown down.

Think of it another way - With DRLs making bikes even harder to see, you now have something akin to a stealth missile coming down the road toward you at anything up to 70mph (depending on road type). It's silent (either it has a Honda engine and/or you have the radio on), it is invisible... and if it hits you, you are toast. If you survive, your insurance will blame you for it as well and (assuming worst possible scenario I can think of) you could potentially face charges of manslaughter and inattentive driving, lose your licence, be imprisoned, etc... all because other people are making it hard for you to see the missiles.

What is YOUR solution to that issue, then?

Not so black and white, is it.

Actually, it is.
If you lack the visual acuity to see a bike approaching in broad daylight without it having all manner of extra bright lights and hi-viz gear, you certainly won't see a cyclist or a pedestrian and you do not belong on the road.
I don't see why everyone else should bear the responsibility for increasing their visibility just because you (speaking plurally) can't see them under perfectly good conditions.

I take great care in my riding, alter position, use lights, wear hi-viz, all for the benefit of drivers who are too busy texting on their iPhones and aren't even looking anyway... God help you all when I get my H-Licence, eh!!

 

[Sgt_Pepper]

Last time I read the stats, 87% of bike accidents (up 1% from the previous year) involving another vehicle occurred because a car (not a van or truck) pulled out from a side road or roundabout entrance in front of a bike.
Typically the driver misjudged the speed of the oncoming bike and thought they had time. I've been pulled out on several times - Each time I saw the driver look directly at me all the while they were beginning to move and only hit the brakes at the very last minute, stopping right in my line. If I'd not been paying attention, they'd have been hit.

Out of that 87% how many were attributed to people running DRLs and how many were at a time when lights were needed due it getting dark?


Bad drivers are bad drivers.

 

[ttaskmaster]

Out of that 87% how many were attributed to people running DRLs and how many were at a time when lights were needed due it getting dark?

It was 87% of all bike accidents that involved another vehicle. It didn't give as full a breakdown as to include every variable.
The point of that was to highlight how visibility is already a problem and how DRLs would only worsen it.

 

[almoststew1990]

I'm a hater of drls. I think we're forgetting the worst culprit here, the Hyundai I40eugh.

The 08 era Mercedes' did them well with it's little strip of leds low down in the bumper, and I could look at angel eyes all day. But other than that I don't like them and have limited benefit for me, a 24 year old with good eyesight who pays attention when driving...

 

[JBeck]

Displaying lights, be it flashing your headlights or having them on, is described in the Highway Code as a method for announcing your presence to other drivers. If you do this in broad daylight when most people can see you perfectly clearly, it is regarded as unnecessary and perceived the same as shouting OR TYPING IN CAPS. You're effectively getting in their face about it.

Again you're talking main beam, this is about DRL's or sidelights, not main beam headlights.

I was a participant in two of the DRL studies they ran here in the UK. That was one of the things that came to light. Another was that drivers take on average one third of a second to check for oncoming traffic before pulling out - "Looked but did not see" is a common statement written on Police accident reports - Not 'could not' but 'did not'. It's got to the point where we need to have adverts TELLING people to 'look out for bikes', which they should have learned when they first got their licence.

Oh come on, it's always been this way before DRL's. I have been a biker myself (still have en enduro I use on the road) and the first rule of thumb as a biker is, you always ride with the expectation that someone will pull out in front of you. This is, and always has been this way for a biker, nothing you or anyone does about lights, driver education, adverts etc will do anything about that.

Dunno about yours, but none of my vehicles have ever had separate adjusters for side and headlights. It's all one contained unit with one reflector and one lens. Where one points, they all point pretty much.

I don't need to say that this is about DRL's/sidelights again, do I?

OK, fine - So you pull out on me and I instead plough through your rear passenger window, killing one of your kids and leaving the other horribly disfigured for the rest of their lives... Makes no difference to me - Either way, I'll still be dead and won't give a flying fig. In fact, a bike my size could potentially take out all four of you.
For every 1-4 lives you save with DRLs, you potentially lose 6-15.

You presume I'm just a car driver, try not to preumse, it's not great in a debate. I know you won't/don't give a flying fig because generally, bikers don't car about car drivers, whereas car drivers simply don't pay enough attention to bikers and do stupid things. There is a difference and that is an important one.

Don't talk about my kids being killed/maimed because quite frankly you're getting very close to a line I don't like.

That photo you put up was plain wrong. If I was waiting at a junction, you're saying that I might not see you because your bike was amazingly lined up perfectly in my vision for me to think it was just a Range Rover coming down the road. Well why the hell would I pull out on that Range Rover anyway? It's right up the bikes arse, for it to be a few hundred yards back (making the bike actually close) the bikes light would have to be tiny, and the Range Rover light huge for the whole thing to work in your arguments favour.

Ooh, would you mind? That'd be awfully helpful!
Bikes, cycles and pedestrians are "harder to see" because they're less common on the road - People expect to see big box shapes on wheels all the time, but for some reason don't expect different profiles.

But no, drive with your lights on if you want. Just know and be happy that your 'safety' is coming at the expense of someone else's... and that the same someone else might suddenly be arriving in the car next to you, bleeding out over your nice upholstry.

You really are deluded if you think some biker who may or may not line up with a Range Rovers headlight, somewhere in my lifetime of driving, comes ahead of myself, my wife or my kids safety.

The standard of driving on our roads is terrible, it's up to me to protect myself and those with me by being as visible as possible as a first step, and driving with due care and attention as a second. Anything inbetween, including you and your lined up Range Rover come a distant third.

biker rant bkah blah blah

Calm down, take a breath, by this point you should realise that I have ridden and still ride bikes on the road, you can stop now.

 

[Haggisman]

Responding to the biker argument. If other vehicles having lights on makes being knocked off your bike a virtual certainty (as you seem to be implying), how on earth do bikers survive riding at night?!

 

[ttaskmaster]

Again you're talking main beam, this is about DRL's or sidelights, not main beam headlights.

The studies factored in all lights, apparently. Bright sunshine was another one, where the bike and its headlight were actually perceived as a glint off the front of the car behind.
There are many factors that lessen visibility. DRLs are just one, but we have more control over this than most of the others and THAT is what the rumble is about.

Oh come on, it's always been this way before DRL's.

Yes and it will continue. I'm not saying this is caused only by DRLs, but that DRLs exacerbate the issue.

you always ride with the expectation that someone will pull out in front of you.

Not much use when I'm banked over on a roundabout or somewhere else I have right of way and am already committed to a maneuvre.

I don't need to say that this is about DRL's/sidelights again, do I?

Say it again, just for the hell of it. Then come round my house, look at the car, SEE that the side light and headlight are just one 2-stage bulb. You *cannot* adjust one without affecting the other. The only light not affected by the adjusters are the indicators, which *are* separate units.

You presume I'm just a car driver,

You presume I presume.
The conversation is about cars pulling out on bikes and you've thus far taken the driver position in this.

I know you won't/don't give a flying fig because generally, bikers don't car about car drivers

What was it you just said about presuming...?
I won't care about who I kill from being pulled out on, because I'll be dead. I won't be there to see the aftermath.
That's not the same as not caring - When you take to the road, you take into your hands your own life, the lives of your passengers and the lives of all those road users immediately around you. I am VERY aware of this, particularly around those below me on the 'road kill' chain such as pedestrians, horse riders and cyclists, ie those who likely will come off much worse than me in a collision. Cars and above tend to be less of a concern as they have all the crumple zones and airbags. They are already in a protective cage. However, I am also aware of the circumstances where *I* could end up really spoiling *their* day too. Even if they don't hit me, their reactions could send them off the road. I don't much relish the idea of getting someone else killed.

If I simply didn't care, I wouldn't bother having things like indicators to begin with. I wouldn't make the effort to be courteous. I wouldn't maintain awareness of blind spots. I'd just ride... kinda like my boss drives his BMW, actually. That's worrying...

Don't talk about my kids being killed/maimed because quite frankly you're getting very close to a line I don't like.

It can and does happen. Fact of life.
It happened to a rider I knew - Woman on a school run, thought her big Chelsea Tractor would be faster off the line than the smaller motorcycle already coming toward her round the roundabout... She went for it, changed her mind and halted right in his lane. She chose a 4x4 because they're supposedly safer for passengers. Were it a car, the rider would have gone over the roof, but as is he ended up being flung through the rear passenger window.

The line you speak of is not meant to be liked - The idea that the lives of your loved ones are at the mercy of your conduct and that of other road users... but it's something always at the forefront of my mind. That I am responsible for all the lives around me was the first thing my instructor ever said and it was drummed into us throught our road training.
It informs every decision I make and, for some people, the risk is so much for them that they refuse to carry passengers.
There's no sugar-coating to it and I really wish it was a thinking more prevalent. It'd save far more lives than anything else I can think of.

If I was waiting at a junction, you're saying that I might not see you because your bike was amazingly lined up perfectly in my vision for me to think it was just a Range Rover coming down the road.

Quite possibly. If a driver takes the typical one third of a second to check, that image really is accurate.
I'm also saying that even if you *do* see, it becomes even harder to judge the speed of oncoming traffic.

Well why the hell would I pull out on that Range Rover anyway?

Same reason people think oncoming bikes are just slow-moving cars with one headlight not working. Same reason that Chelsea Tractor woman pulled out. Same reason I see people try it on every day I ride to work and back - They think they can make it.

It's right up the bikes arse

It serves to illustrate the point. Might even be staged, but it's an example.
Also, the bike is most likely stopped.

You really are deluded if you think some biker who may or may not line up with a Range Rovers headlight, somewhere in my lifetime of driving, comes ahead of myself, my wife or my kids safety.

That's my point, though - It's potentially not just one life over the other, but both or neither. By taking care of the one who might flip through your window and cause the damage, you safeguard those inside as well.

Here's another one - Car suddenly changes lane on bike, bike goes under the car, part of the bike jams up in the back wheel and wrenches it out, car goes spinning off the road. I'll leave you to fill in the blanks.

The standard of driving on our roads is terrible, it's up to me to protect myself and those with me by being as visible as possible as a first step, and driving with due care and attention as a second.

Then you will fail, since all the visibility in the world still won't save you from someone who isn't paying attention.
Using care and attention includes defensive measures for those who aren't. Visibility comes after that.

Calm down, take a breath, by this point you should realise that I have ridden and still ride bikes on the road, you can stop now.

I understand having the car as well gives you the option of abandoning the bike, but how are you not incensed by the idea that things could be made even more dangerous for you?

Responding to the biker argument. If other vehicles having lights on makes being knocked off your bike a virtual certainty (as you seem to be implying), how on earth do bikers survive riding at night?!

Apparently we don't - See earlier comment about being brightly lit and stationary, yet still not seen when right in the driver's line of sight!!

It's about it becoming more likely, rather than a certainty, but it's also reckoned to be an eventuality by many riders.
There are various factors at full night that don't work for visibility in daytime - The shape the headlight casts on the road ahead, the positioning and movement, the rider's approach to road handling, etc.
It is actually harder to get noticed and I have had more close calls at night than in daytime. People thinking I'm a car with one headlight out is a common one, along with going over a bump and people thinking I'm "flashing them out". The only counter is the reduced volume of traffic at night.

 

[gigeorge]

People that run front fogs when its not foggy are breaking the law, they annoy me more than drls! DRLS have been made to look a bit too sexy with the led's - more sex / corporate jewellery appeal than safety imo !

 

[daveydave]

For car drivers, it is most likely twofold:

There's also the fact that it makes motorcycles harder to see and robs them of the visibility they create by having their lights on. To a driver pulling out from a side road, the bike's headlight will look something like this:

Yes, having DRLs may save the life of one car driver... but subtract from that the lives of three bikers... and often whoever SMIDSYs/pulls out on them. My bike weighs 42 stone - Unless your side window is rocket-proof, if you pull out on that bike you'll probably be as much a meat waggon write-off as I will!!


Read more here: http://www.dadrl.org.uk/DRLstudies.html

This

 

[Simon42]

I've recently purchased a car with DRLs and they certainly look nice, but for me the better safety feature is automatic lights.

We've all had times when we forget to turn lights on soon enough, and times when we forget to turn them off after leaving a patch of heavy rain or fog. It all vehicles were lit similarly in an area then they're all equally visible. Whether bikers need brighter lights during the day is also a valid question.

Right now we have some cars with DRLs that are fine, some that are too bright and other cars/bikes that may be over or under illuminated and that's not ideal, and for me this is an issue that should be looked at.

 

[Hades]

I remember my dad driving around for years in Volvo's in the 80s and despite their daylight running lights there was a distinct lack of bikes being hit around us.

 

[JBeck]

To be honest I can hardly be bothered to reply but I will. All this stuff has been debated to death already many times before.

Not much use when I'm banked over on a roundabout or somewhere else I have right of way and am already committed to a maneuvre.

It is your responsibility to be able to stop at any given threat (a responsibility to yourself that is). If you ride beyond your abilities to react to idiots doing stupid things, knowing that idiots do stupid things, then you can't complain. EVERY time I ride, I ride knowing that some nob jockey is going to try and pull out on me and I ride accordingly. If I push my luck in a world full of idiots then I will take what comes and smack myself on the wrist.

Say it again, just for the hell of it. Then come round my house, look at the car, SEE that the side light and headlight are just one 2-stage bulb. You *cannot* adjust one without affecting the other. The only light not affected by the adjusters are the indicators, which *are* separate units.

Don't talk to me like I'm a child. You've completely missed the point again.

You presume I presume.
The conversation is about cars pulling out on bikes and you've thus far taken the driver position in this.

That's because you were throwing the pictures around and saying that you'd smash in to my side window and perhaps maim me or my kids etc. Does a bike have a side window? No it does not therefore I replied as a car driver.

lots and lots...

Just really, stop...

It can and does happen. Fact of life.
It happened to a rider I knew - Woman on a school run, thought her big Chelsea Tractor would be faster off the line than the smaller motorcycle already coming toward her round the roundabout... She went for it, changed her mind and halted right in his lane. She chose a 4x4 because they're supposedly safer for passengers. Were it a car, the rider would have gone over the roof, but as is he ended up being flung through the rear passenger window.

The line you speak of is not meant to be liked - The idea that the lives of your loved ones are at the mercy of your conduct and that of other road users...

Again you missed the point, of course I'm aware of reality and facts of life (stop talking to me like I know Jack S, please?). The point was you didn't need to go that far.

Super Essay Deluxe

Look you've written way too much and this could go on and on, and on. The fact is I want to be as visible as possible, just as you do. However you want to be visible at my expense, at every cars expense, just so we can see your single headlight easier. I'm saying to you that I don't care about you as much as I care about the people in my car with me. Therefore I will use my sidelights, which are relatively dim and not at all agrressive. I am a very very good driver and I notice bikers because I'm one myself. Don't tar me with the random idiot car driver who's only see's what they want to see.

I don't know what bike you have but I know this, my enduro bike is not bright, my helmet is not bright and I don't wear colourful racing leathers. Am I moaning about being visible? No I am not, I accept the fact that I am at risk at all times when it comes to cars being cars.

 

[Tute]

I don't dislike them per se, but if I had a car that looked crap with them on I certainly wouldn't feel bad about taking steps to disable them.