what incentives do your employers offer?

Caporegime
Joined
29 Jan 2008
Posts
58,912
I missed a negative in there, sorry for confusion. I listed these benefits with all the others as benefits that incentive people to stay and work hard, but you claimed they weren't incentives. These things are available to all employees regardless of what they do because if they don't do their job they are fired. They incentivise people to stay with company work hard.

If the OP wants to incentivise his employees to work hard and stay put then he needs to ensure the salaries and benefits are extremely competitive with other companies. There is no better incentive than money!

No I said they can be seen as incentives to stay/turn up to work etc... if you like. But that's probably not what the OP was after - as I pointed out I'm pretty sure his company pays a salary too... Salary + standard benefits will get some people doing just enough to not get fired. Yes I know.. your company is full of highly motivated super geniuses with a trigger happy firing policy - unfortunately most workplaces are not like that and targeted incentives can be useful - making sure you pay more than everyone else might be useful for a profitable small tech firm... but by default only a few firms can at any time be paying the most... big salary increases across the board are not a realistic proposition for most firms.

Aside from a small firm of uber geeks you will find that workforces won't necessarily be motivated by their standard salary and benefits... Bigger organisations can't hire an entire workforce of perfect employees. Google for example is supposed to be a bit selective whereas at least one of their former employees (of a few years experience) was less than impressive IME and presumably spent lots of his time there sleeping on the bean bags... They're a big firm now - they likely have the same issues and big variations in productivity as plenty of other firms.

So no I'm simply not buying the idea that salary+ standard benefits + fire anyone not 'excellent' is really a realistic proposition for the vast majority of firms actively looking at creating incentives... if everyone took that approach the wage bills would be huge and most of the population unemployed.
 
Last edited:
Caporegime
Joined
18 Oct 2002
Posts
32,618
No I said they can be seen as incentives to stay/turn up to work etc... if you like. But that's probably not what the OP was after - as I pointed out I'm pretty sure his company pays a salary too... Salary + standard benefits will get some people doing just enough to not get fired. Yes I know.. your company is full of highly motivated super geniuses with a trigger happy firing policy - unfortunately most workplaces are not like that and targeted incentives can be useful - making sure you pay more than everyone else might be useful for a profitable small tech firm... but by default only a few firms can at any time be paying the most... big salary increases across the board are not a realistic proposition for most firms.

Aside from a small firm of uber geeks you will find that workforces won't necessarily be motivated by their standard salary and benefits... Bigger organisations can't hire an entire workforce of perfect employees. Google for example is supposed to be a bit selective whereas at least one of their former employees (of a few years experience) was less than impressive IME and presumably spent lots of his time there sleeping on the bean bags... They're a big firm now - they likely have the same issues and big variations in productivity as plenty of other firms.

So no I'm simply not buying the idea that salary+ standard benefits + fire anyone not 'excellent' is really a realistic proposition for the vast majority of firms actively looking at creating incentives... if everyone took that approach the wage bills would be huge and most of the population unemployed.



OK, taking a step back.
A company want to complete a project. You propose there are methods to reduce the time it takes to complete the project by incentivising employees.

But this has numerous issues. Firstly, a project takes as long as it takes, you can't magically make things go faster if people are working appropriately. If the project takes 100 then it takes 100 hours, you can't change that. If you want the project to be done in a shorter number of days then you need employees to work more than their 40-50 hours a week and will need to look at paying over time or salaries where 70 hour weeks are properly remunerated. This can have its own issues and you may be better off hiring additional employees if the project cannot be met be the desired deadline with current staf
fing levels.

Secondly, any kind of reward or punishment for not hitting the arbitrary deadline makes for a very poor business practice. Again, a project takes as long as it takes. If something crops up that delays the project then there is not much that can be done about it, no one should loose out. If the workload was underestimated then the mistake should be noted for future reference. If the deadline is beaten then it means someone underestimated the work load or everyone was extremely lucky and all the slack time the employees wanted wasn't needed

Setting project related rewards leads to all/some of the following:
1) Managers setting unrealistic deadlines that can't be met. [hint, managers should never set deadlines, employees should be trusted to provide best estimated completion times.]
2) Employees set extremely lax estimated times to guarantee hitting the final deadline no matter what. The whole schedule becomes useless at this point.
3) Managers try to bribe, blackmail and corerce employees into working more hours than legally allowed,.
4) As above but employees aren't appropriately compensated for doing extra
hours.
5) employees suffer from burn out and stress for always chasing impossible deadlines given by management. They become less productive and may leave due to health reasons.
6) Quality of work rapidly diminishes in order to meet deadlines. E.g., software becomes poorly tested, buggy, messy and rushed.
7) Good Employees leave for a better job where they can be trusted to work without micromanagement.


It takes a certain amount of time to bake bread. You can't change that. The yeast needs time to work, the dough needs time to rest, and then time to bake. As long as the baker is working appropriately then as many loaves of bread as is possible will be produced per day. That work rate needs to be respected. If the baker gets sick or the oven breaks down then the bread output will decline. There is no need to punish the baker.
 
Last edited:
Caporegime
Joined
29 Jan 2008
Posts
58,912
OK, taking a step back.
A company want to complete a project. You propose there are methods to reduce the time it takes to complete the project by incentivising employees.
[...]

So is your position essentially that incentives above and beyond standard salary + benefits don't work? Do you not have stock options/bonus? If so does everyone get allocated the same amount or do you account for different people adding value in different ways, some people being more productive than others?

I'd buy the idea that if you're perhaps a small profitable firm with few competitors then you can afford to pay large sums to people and perhaps could afford to employ only top talent and get rid of anyone not hitting a very high standard - but when firms move beyond those sorts of markets and attract real competition, increase in size - there is frequently less scope for simply paying high salaries to everyone and with a larger workforce and perhaps an older, larger code base you'll have less excellent people, some of whom might be stuck in roles that are rather dull, others may be on high fixed salaries and are essential/have some specialised knowledge/experience (to the point that it would cause a lot of pain if you get rid of them). In the real world projects aren't always run as efficiently as each other, some people are better than others, some dev teams make more mistakes, have more envelopes returned, some developers are significantly more productive than others... when people review what went wrong mistakes will have been made, people did make errors... this is all perfectly normal in plenty of organisations. If everyone is just earning a fixed base/benefits + annual increments then by default you've got less flexibility to both reward and incentivise everyone.
 
Caporegime
Joined
18 Oct 2002
Posts
32,618
People get allocated bonuses and stock options based on the performance of the company and seniority.

We work as a team. The Performance of the company is related to performance of the team + outside factors, it is not related to individual performance. It is near impossible to work out any fair individual contributions and in the end it is pointless. You are hired to do a job, you are either capable of doing that job or not - if not you are fired.


In many fields like software it is impossible to measure individual productivity. In the 60s they measured number of lines coded per day before they realized it is simplistic and not what is desired. Someone might work 70 hours a week and be less productive than someone working 20 so hours worked are useless. You might have a brilliant engineers that develops some fantastically complex software but which is ultimately useless (through no fault of their own). Someone might be useless but by accident does something incredibly useful, how do you reward productivity?

The company is developing a smartphone app. There is someone doing server side development, someone making the iphone app, someone making the android app, someone taking care the DB, someone taking care of media and GFX, and there is a tester. The Idea came form a manager, but the idea was greatly changed over an iterative process with the entire team. The App when released doesn't sell well so they hire a marketing guy and now suddenly there are loads iPhone downloads but little android still.

How do you possibly work out individual productivity and award? The idea was the managers and without that nothing would be developed, but then his idea was greatly changed, how important were those changes without doing a detailed market study? How can you quantity the importance of the server developer vs the DB admin, vs the client developer? Was the tester important at all, if so how, what about the GFX guy, because he could easily be replaced with someone else right? But then no one's contribution seemed to matter because there were no sales until marketing took over so the marketing guy deserves all the glory and big bonuses. Even then, since there were little android sales then the Android guy should be penalized and the iphone guy rewarded for making a better app?


it is a futile archaic managed tool form the 19th century. The software team should work as a team and everyone should work hard to help realize success. If someone isn't being a team player then they should be fired.
 
Soldato
Joined
30 Jul 2004
Posts
2,836
Location
Auckland
We have quite a few incentives - we are all fee generating which makes it real easy to hit achievable metrics but our current incentives are:
Commission on profit generated for the company :)
Friday drinks at 4pm
Monthly friday drinks at a local bar
Meal out for the team if we hit a personal best
Lunch on Friday if we hit specific KPI goals for that week - just fish and chips or something cheap but it really works for us!
Clear pay rises given when you hit a certain average level of billing for a 3 or 6 month period
If our office hit's it's PB then we go out on a bigger outing again
Hmm we also run probably bi-monthly sales competitions with spot prizes on the day like Ipad mini or Shopping vouchers.
We seem to be mostly incentivised by Money, Beer, Food and mutually achieved stretch targets.
That said we have a really good bunch of consultants at the moment and a great atmosphere with a team that just finished 50% up YOY in fees generated so other than the fact that we have just started a new financial year and are now being pushed to deliver an additional $500k in GP this year on top of what we did last year which is a bit scary we are all pushing hard and enjoying earning good commissions - and are hitting PB's every other month at the moment which means lots of food and goodness :)

-edit-
Watching how our boss has got us moving it has been about identifying a couple of real clear and easily identifiable KPI's and then rewarding stretching or just hitting what we need to do in those areas. Make it complicated and hard to see and it is more difficult.
 
Caporegime
Joined
29 Jan 2008
Posts
58,912
P
In many fields like software it is impossible to measure individual productivity.

I wouldn't go as far as saying its impossible... it can get a bit fuzzy... then again so can salaries, seniority - does seniority now just become an arbitrary function of time served and/or playing internal politics well if you assume anyone who isn't fired for being bad is equally as good as each other as you don't believe someone's value can be measured in any meaningful way etc...

The software team should work as a team and everyone should work hard to help realize success. If someone isn't being a team player then they should be fired.

If you can judge that some people should be fired then you can measure some differences between employees.... only you're seemingly proposing it can only be measured as far as a simply good/bad - is it really that binary - everyone is either excellent to a similar unmeasurable level or falls into a should be fired category? You're unable to distinguish between the employees who you'd want to keep on?

Yes productivity is hard to measure but I don't buy the idea that you can't reward people for adding value in some capacity - be it billable hours worked, revenue attributed to their team, or based on some performance measures or even partly on general perception/subjective opinion etc.etc.(realistically some discretionary bonuses are going to be allocated in a partly subjective fashion)

Incentives come in other forms and are not limited to productivity... some client is going live with an enhancement this weekend... they'd like someone from x dev team available on call to support this and are willing to pay - the developers who worked on the project don't usually work weekends and are certainly not obliged to work them either - one of them has plans... yes I'm sure you could pressure them into being a 'team player' or decide that such employees should be happy to volunteer as they earn a salary... perhaps they should be fired? But this is also and area where incentives come into play - you offer 2 days in lieu + some sum of money.

Some older guys are happy at the level they're at... don't worry about progression any more, have a six figure salary, specialised knowledge base, know they're hard to replace and typically only want to work their contracted hours/leave at 5pm.... important project comes up, involves some legacy code these guys maintain - you'll need to use one of these guys a lot, you may want them to work a bit longer near important deadlines.... simply expecting them to be a 'team player' isn't necessarily going to cut it, they're happy doing their 9-5 and no one is going to get rid of them as they're too important - you'll likely have to offer some incentives if its really important

Someone who doesn't usually travel could be very useful at a client site - he's not a consultant but is a specialist in the particular area they're having trouble with and the consultants could do with his help - his physical presence would be more useful than continual webex sessions. He doesn't particularly like traveling and just asking him to be a 'team player' might not cut it nor would the standard company travel policy.... you might well have to offer some incentives, travel business class, decent hotel, flights back each weekend, generous per diems and the time will be billable/taken into account with the bonus....
 
Soldato
Joined
2 Dec 2009
Posts
4,006
Location
Midlands
No they're definitely not the same thing.

In that case then, the incentives are that I have a job if I do my job well.

I do not get bonuses, no extra increments, no £500 at christmas, no extra day off for my birthday or anything. I do my job exceptionally well and I retain my position.

If I do my job adequately/poorly, I lose it.
 
Associate
Joined
10 Jul 2012
Posts
1,463
Location
So where?
My employees get a free 2 bed flat and free meals...and yet in the past some have complained that :

A) I don't pay enough (really?)
B) that they stole because they were in desperate need.

I enjoyed firing those fools.
 
Soldato
Joined
4 Nov 2004
Posts
14,370
Location
Beds
33 Days holiday (inc 4 fixed bank holidays and 4 added onto leave).
Yearly Bonus.
Up to 10% shares in the Company bought at cheapest 6 monthly date and at -15%.
Pension contributions doubled up to max total of 24%.
Car allowance (can pretty much run whatever you want).
Private Healthcare.
Flexible working hours.
Significant training online or at either of the worldwide training centres.
Flexible benefits to contribute salary (saving tax) for dental care, child care, buy extra holidays, shift bonus into pension tax free etc.
 
Back
Top Bottom