Save the NHS!

Commissario
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Panting like a fiend
Lets be clear, they have been given a 13% increase in their basic pay. They have had rates cut for "anti social" hours.

So it is entirely possible that they may be worse off.

Depending on the hours being worked it could be a lot worse off.

As I understand it, at the moment 60 hours of the week are classed as "normal" hours (Mon-Fri, 07:00-19:00), under the new contract it will be Mon-Sat 07:00-22:00, so there will be an extra 30 hours where any pay will be at the basic rate.
that means that effectively anyone working a couple of evening shifts is likely to be worse off, as will anyone working a Saturday.
The only people that might be better off will be those who rarely work later or weekends.

I noticed on the news that Hunt and co were pushing how the new contract will limit the number of consecutive days that the Doctors will be required to work nights.
It didn't however mention anything about how long they might get between shifts, or between going from a Day to a Night or the other way round, which is actually possibly a bigger issue, as it takes time for the body to adjust to the difference in sleep patterns.

I find is odd that someone who can quite literally have your life in their hands has far less protection in regards to working hours, and the pattern of working hours than a Bus driver, let alone an Airline pilot (I wouldn't get in a Bus let alone an aircraft where the person in charge of it had worked 60+ hours hours and hadn't had a break for 8 hour, and yet that is the case with medical profession under the current rules, let alone the new ones).
 
Soldato
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At the moment a lot of "junior" Doctors (who are fully qualified and often very experienced) are barely able to afford paying back their student loans

Sorry to pick on this one point out of your post, but why is their student loan any less affordable to pay back than anyone elses?


I know this is about Junior Doctors, but they will lead on to Doctors/Consultants etc and when I stop seeing A&E Consultants driving in in their £100K+ motors I'll have a 'little bit' more sympathy for them :p
 
Man of Honour
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I find is odd that someone who can quite literally have your life in their hands has far less protection in regards to working hours, and the pattern of working hours than a Bus driver, let alone an Airline pilot (I wouldn't get in a Bus let alone an aircraft where the person in charge of it had worked 60+ hours hours and hadn't had a break for 8 hour, and yet that is the case with medical profession under the current rules, let alone the new ones).

That is a pretty concerning point.
 

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Soldato
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I find is odd that someone who can quite literally have your life in their hands has far less protection in regards to working hours, and the pattern of working hours than a Bus driver, let alone an Airline pilot (I wouldn't get in a Bus let alone an aircraft where the person in charge of it had worked 60+ hours hours and hadn't had a break for 8 hour, and yet that is the case with medical profession under the current rules, let alone the new ones).

I'm sure another one of the endless enquiries will be setup to bury the screwups/incompetence of government. You know how they like to be seen to doing something. *audience applauds them*
 
Man of Honour
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Sorry to pick on this one point out of your post, but why is their student loan any less affordable to pay back than anyone elses?

You need to include the rest of the sentence - doctors also have to fund their own mandatory training for instance, which is a cost which comes out of their salary after tax and such is paid.
 
Permabanned
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I find is odd that someone who can quite literally have your life in their hands has far less protection in regards to working hours, and the pattern of working hours than a Bus driver, let alone an Airline pilot (I wouldn't get in a Bus let alone an aircraft where the person in charge of it had worked 60+ hours hours and hadn't had a break for 8 hour, and yet that is the case with medical profession under the current rules, let alone the new ones).

Their hours will now be capped at 72 hours per week, down from 90 something.
 
Soldato
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You need to include the rest of the sentence - doctors also have to fund their own mandatory training for instance, which is a cost which comes out of their salary after tax and such is paid.

Lots of professionals have CPD and subscriptions to professional bodies to pay for themselves.

My ex is an A&E Nurse so I know what happens in Hospitals and she has just as many peoples lives in her hands as well.

There are a lot of things that should change with the working practices within the NHS, the way staff are treated wouldn't be tolerated in any other profession, but to be arguing over whether unsocial hours start at 7am or 8am and whether working a weekend should be paid x amount extra etc is just fiddling at the edges imo.

The NHS is already 24/7 in the front line, they know that when they decide to go into the profession.
 
Associate
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I noticed on the news that Hunt and co were pushing how the new contract will limit the number of consecutive days that the Doctors will be required to work nights.
It didn't however mention anything about how long they might get between shifts, or between going from a Day to a Night or the other way round, which is actually possibly a bigger issue, as it takes time for the body to adjust to the difference in sleep patterns.
How are the rules around consecutive hours worked and shifts changing? From what I can see the same minimum rest periods and days still apply.

All the information I can find on the BMA's own website suggests the only remaining issue is the new pay model. In fact, their letter on 10th February tables an alternative "cost neutral" pay model which retains higher payments for unsociable hours and that's it.

It's becoming increasingly difficult to believe this dispute is about anything other than money.
 
Associate
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How are the rules around consecutive hours worked and shifts changing? From what I can see the same minimum rest periods and days still apply.

All the information I can find on the BMA's own website suggests the only remaining issue is the new pay model. In fact, their letter on 10th February tables an alternative "cost neutral" pay model which retains higher payments for unsociable hours and that's it.

It's becoming increasingly difficult to believe this dispute is about anything other than money.

Well would you be happy if you were told you had to start working the same hours for less money?
 
Soldato
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Well would you be happy if you were told you had to start working the same hours for less money?

Well every other public sector worker seems to have had their pay cut/frozen/pension raided/extra work due to less staff, that's 'austerity' for you...

I have a lot of connections in the RAF and their workload has increased with benefits and pay cut/frozen, but they aren't allowed to strike :p (Not that they are on a bad deal as it is, just like Doctors imo)
 
Man of Honour
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+1000

"You say it is unsafe to work 'unsociable hours' on a Saturday but then invalidate that claim by saying you want more money to work on a Saturday. Do you run on money, does it fuel you to be a better doctor?"

I agree with the fact that more should be done for NHS staff, personally I think a scheme should be in place wherein Uni debt is wiped if they obtain the degree/ qualification and serve a minimum period in the NHS dependant on role.

I find this strike action pitiful, the belief of an inherent right to more money (13.5%!) when these intelligent, educated people knew exactly what they signed up for at the time is pathetic and a sad but true reflection on a generation. It is unsociable at times and it is exhausting but the same can be said for dozens of careers, don't see how junior doctors are more deserving than soldiers, police, fire 'where's the picket line?' service, carers, coast guard etc etc.

It's a sad state of affairs when the Govt has to take a hardline response but in this case I'm fully onside with them, I don't see what choice they have because if they cave in to whatever astronomical demands the junior doctors want then you can be certain others will follow suit. The tube drivers only need to wake up on the wrong side of the bed to strike over their outrageously low 55k a year.

i think you are mixing multiple points. let me explain...

(declaration of interest: i am a junior doctor, but hear me out)

1) there is no more money. as is stated by HMG, the contract changes is supposedly "cost neutral". 13.5% rise in basic pay does not offset the 40% loss in banding. Hence the use of "pay protection" aka divide-and-conquer, aka screw-your-future-colleagues. to the average junior doctor what it'll mean is static pay at best (or like the past decade, pay cut in real terms).

2) there is already a 24/7 NHS ***emergency*** service. you know the 43% that hunt spoke about going into work? yes, that is the emergency portion of the junior doctor workforce. 20,000 of them.

3) there is already a large gaping hole in the medical/nursing workforce. i put to you this example:
M7hzdfB.png
this is at the hospital i work at. just covering general medicine. not including surgery, or paediatrics, or orthopaedics, or obs/gynae, or urology.

if there isnt enough people to provide good routine (ie not emergency) 5-day care, how can it be expected that routine 7-day care can be well provided?
the answer is, well simple, you either a) hire more staff, or b) stretch your staff more thinly. HMG doesn't want to do (a), so it is doing (b).

if you stretch your already thin staff even more thinly, there's only one thing that can happen, and it aint a good thing. hence the #unsafe portion of the argument

4) the #unfair portion of the argument is that to do the #unsafe bit, the staff will have to work for longer and harder, and at unsociable hours.
now you may ask, well people in the retail sector, in mcdonalds already work for flat rates at weekends.
well that may be true, but then why not compare to the lawyers, barristers, dentists, city bankers, actuaries etc. apples and oranges.
no one's asking for a pay rise, just not a pay cut, whilst working longer and harder, which in essesence a pay cut as $/hr is markedly reduced.
all that has been asked for is fair remuneration for fair work.

2nd declaration of interest: i'm not from the uk. i dont care what happens to the NHS, whether it stays nationalised or privatised, but you british public don't know you had it so good until it's lost.

i'd just like to end with this:
smL6gre.jpg

it's no secret what the end game is. junior doc contracts are the first. then the consultant contract, then nurses/allied healthcare professionals/porters etc.
 
Associate
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Always on the M1.....
Declaration of interest - I am an A+E Consultant

Typical politicisation of what is basically an underfunded service being asked to stretch even further.

A 24/7 NHS is not being hampered by doctors refusing to work weekends. As a junior doctor, I worked 1 in 3 or 1 in 4 weekends, at times worked 130 hours in a week, had single figures hours sleep over a weekend, all on a regular basis. At 3 in the morning, I would be earning less per hour than the ward cleaner. It has improved significantly over the years but this will take it backwards. I know all about 24/7 healthcare.

And now they want our juniors to be paid less overall for the work they do. A big part of junior doctor's pay is for antisocial hours, often 40% at least. By increasing the time that is not anti-social, overall pay is going to go down. Additionally, the limits on hours will reduce with less (financial) incentive for Trusts to overwork staff. Doctors will be working longer hours with thinner staffing levels. It's back to the dangerous times when I worked as a junior doctor when I would frequently be falling asleep on my feet. Literally.

At the end of the day, we pay less for our health service than any other system in the world for what is comparatively a good service. Funding has been cut year on year and doctors are leaving in droves.

A 24/7 NHS is not going to be achieved by thrashing staff harder, what is needed are more staff and more facilities out of hours, and ultimately, more money.

Just because people say they are paid the same at weekends and during the week, doesn't make it right for everyone else. Comparing junior doctors to other, similarly trained, professionals, can you imagine what a barrister would charge at weekends? Or an accountant?

It's not just about money, it's about fair pay for a fair amount of work to provide a safe and sustainable healthcare system. Until the Government accepts that they need to invest in a service for a growing population, nothing is going to change.
 
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