30K everyone in company gets it.

Soldato
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Good for them if it works and they are happy
I love the way it blows some people's minds.

I don't think anyone's mind has been particularly "blown", more just a case of people pointing out (quite rightly) that it only works in these very specific circumstances due to the ideological nature and the narrow skills requirements of the company in question.

I agree with the "good for them if it works", but in the vast majority of cases it simply wouldn't.

Do you think e.g. Tesco would continue to function if all of it's employees were paid £30k each? Do you think any decent CEO would want the position if the pay was £30k and they could get significantly more elsewhere?
 
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Associate
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All I said was poverty will increase unless the wages of the lowest paid increase more quickly (or at least at parity with the average), which is factually correct.

Given that poverty is usually defined with respect to the median income (aka relative poverty) then you can also lift people out of poverty by bringing high salaries down.
 
Soldato
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Your post has literally zero relevance.

A: I never said someone who earns £30k lives in poverty
B: I never said poverty in the UK is comparable to 3rd world countries

All I said was poverty will increase unless the wages of the lowest paid increase more quickly (or at least at parity with the average), which is factually correct.

There are two definitions of "poverty" and you're both using different ones. There is the economics definition of poverty line which is based around average earnings within a country, and there is the lay definition of not being able to eat, etc.

The two are obviously intrinsically tied in a free market because costs of basic necessities rise with median income, but they're still different things. I think the two of your are arguing at cross-purposes.
 
Caporegime
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the thing is I'd already previously pointed that out when he quoted ultralaser who specifically stated 'absolute poverty'

he then seemed to ignore that point and quoted 'wildman' who again has specifically referred to 'absolute poverty'
 
Soldato
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I don't think anyone's mind has been particularly "blown", more just a case of people pointing out (quite rightly) that it only works in these very specific circumstances due to the ideological nature and the narrow skills requirements of the company in question.

I agree with the "good for them if it works", but in the vast majority of cases it simply wouldn't.

Do you think e.g. Tesco would continue to function if all of it's employees were paid £30k each? Do you think any decent CEO would want the position if the pay was £30k and they could get significantly more elsewhere?

Tesco, or any other large, established business would struggle to move on to such a model, even if the leadership wanted to do it. They'd have to restructure the entire business, and if the plan failed it could potentially ruin the company. Far too risky to even try it.

That doesn't mean a supermarket couldn't be run in such a manner, though if it's a chain split over multiple sites and across the whole country, potentially it would be more sensible to add a second tier to accommodate multi-site leadership roles. Otherwise, you'd have every shops doing different things.
 
Man of Honour
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How big is Suma or whatever they are called? How many employees does it have?

Small, 140 employers. The resin it "works" is it has an extremely hippy motive and so those type are happy to do it. They'll probably be far from the best employees and probably why after so many decades it's still so small.
 
Soldato
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Fwiw, Suma are the biggest, but not the only ethical supplier of goods.

Scotland has Greencity in Glasgow, the south east has Rainbow Wholefood located in Norwich. Leicester has the leicester Wholefood Group, etc.

There are a number of them doing well.


Then there is like like of the john lewis partnership, which includes waitrose. Okay, their wages are not equally split, but all the workers are partners.


Edit:
They'll probably be far from the best employees
Based on what grounds? I mean, you come across as a right douche bag in what you write a lot of the time, there is at least some evidence of this... but what about the staff at suma?

They could become much larger if they started to drop their ethics/whole ethos. Which, duh, they are not going to do.
 
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Man of Honour
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:rolleyes:

The best people don't work for 30k well ender the going rate, they do it for a drive of what they perceive as utopia. You are not going to get the best managers and other skilled people for that price. They will go else where and earn considerably more.
 
Soldato
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:rolleyes:

The best people don't work for 30k well ender the going rate, they do it for a drive of what they perceive as utopia. You are not going to get the best managers and other skilled people for that price. They will go else where and earn considerably more.

Yet you'll get the best of the rest. How much management time is spent motivating and managing unmotivated staff who don't care about the business and can barely be bothered to turn up? There's no reason why a business paying everyone £30k/year would put up with such people when it would be easy to attract the best unskilled and semi-skilled people.
 
Man of Honour
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Yet you'll get the best of the rest. How much management time is spent motivating and managing unmotivated staff who don't care about the business and can barely be bothered to turn up? There's no reason why a business paying everyone £30k/year would put up with such people when it would be easy to attract the best unskilled and semi-skilled people.

You won't get best of the rest, you'll get rubbish or those with enormous amounts of ideology drive which rarely produces a stable person. 30k is peanuts for a lot of positions. You aren't going to even attract moderately capable people for that price.
Good luck getting an account for the price for that size company, who could easily earn triple that anywhere else.
Same with managers, what manager is only on 30k.
 
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Caporegime
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it's up north so people in low level management positions could earn that much, plus it is 30k + bonus so potentially more like 40k... OK that is a new grad package down south but up there it is a good wage
 
Soldato
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Either you've missed the point, are out of touch with the world, or are being intentionally stupid. I'm not sure which...

Since when does a food manufacturing business pay workers £30k? It's a minimum, or near minimum, wage job. If you pay them £30k, you can pick the best of them. You can pick the ones who want to have a go at other aspects of the business and learn new skills. You can pick them people who believe in your business and will be ambassadors for it. There is value in that.
 
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Man of Honour
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^^
Since when were managers, accountants and the like unskilled workers?

What marketing people are going to work for 30k probably why their marketing is non existent only time I've seen them is seeking through amazon. In very small unprofessional way. I actually buy their 1kg nuts through amazon

it's up north so people in low level management positions could earn that much, plus it is 30k + bonus so potentially more like 40k... OK that is a new grad package down south but up there it is a good wage

And people from other companies don't get bonuses?
Even team leaders are on more than them, let alone anyone else, and that's national wage, even up north.

It "works" for a very niche sector, it wouldn't even remotely work on a larger scale,
 
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Caporegime
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And people from other companies don't get bonuses?
Even team leaders are on more than them, let alone anyone else, and that's national wage, even up north.

in food companies like that one? doubtful that 'team leaders' if they have them that they'd be on much more than these guy up north

sure the overall Boss is almost certainly losing out on pay and so would a few others in a senior position but generally it would seem to be a good wage for that sector and that location
 
Soldato
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^^
Since when were managers, accountants and the like unskilled workers?

What marketing people are going to work for 30k probably why their marketing is non existent only time I've seen them is seeking through amazon. In very small unprofessional way. I actually buy their 1kg nuts through amazon

Managers, accountants and the like aren't the entire workforce. In a company of this size, that would normally be all of what? 10 people? Maybe less? Running a business in this way will always be a compromise. To pay everyone £30k they have to employ people who are prepared to do a bit of everything.

I'm not even sure what we're discussing here now :p I'm certainly not suggesting running a business like this is the way forward. It's a decent idea as a niche, and I can see the value in working for such a business short-term before moving on to something more conventional. But it isn't a concept that's going to set the world alight.
 
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Soldato
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Managers, accountants and the like aren't the entire workforce.

But that's not the point. Those managers and accountants are going to be earning significantly less than they could be elsewhere, so in those roles they're only ever going to get:

People who are inexperienced and will only be there for a year or 2 before moving on.

Or

People who are there for ideological reasons and happen to have the skills required (but possibly aren't the best at the job)

Yes, they may get lucky and find a fantastic accountant who doesn't mind a 50% paycut to work for a vegan food company, but the chances of that are slim
 
Soldato
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But that's not the point. Those managers and accountants are going to be earning significantly less than they could be elsewhere, so in those roles they're only ever going to get:

People who are inexperienced and will only be there for a year or 2 before moving on.

Or

People who are there for ideological reasons and happen to have the skills required (but possibly aren't the best at the job)

Yes, they may get lucky and find a fantastic accountant who doesn't mind a 50% paycut to work for a vegan food company, but the chances of that are slim

Your point being what, exactly? You've started your post with "but that's not the point" and then gone on to reiterate a position that precisely nobody disagrees with. Of course you can't pay half of the market rate and expect to attract the best, most qualified and most experienced people for a job role. That would be bizarre.
 
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