Apple Tax issues in Ireland

[joeyjojo]

They should just cough up IMO. This 13 bn euros is less than 7% of their (non-US) cash reserves.

They can pay it in full and still be richer than the next three richest US companies combined (Microsoft, Google, and Verizon).

I wonder what Ireland would do with all that money though, it's about 6 months of total government spending.

 

[dowie]

I wonder what Ireland would do with all that money though, it's about 6 months of total government spending.

Ireland won't get all that money, other EU governments have a claim on it for sales generated in their nations... by rights Ireland should get very little of it if all other EU nations make a claim for a portion.

 

[englishpremier]

Spending it would seem wasteful unless they have some good infrastructure plans. There's plenty of deprived places, rubbish houses, and bad roads in the country. Still and awesome place though.

Perhaps they could invest it, and start a sovereign wealth fund like Norway.

Most likely they'd need it to pay for JSA if Apple left the country.

 

[fez]

Well Tim Cook has cleared this all up. They are one of the largest tax payers in Ireland so that's totally cool. Ireland, the powerhouse of commerce and global trade with a GDP of sweet **** all

 

[StriderX]

What did the Irish government think would occur?

Actually what the hell do most EU nations think the EU does?

Seems to me like a lot of these countries think they can just skirt the rules because they're kinda small and uninfluential, wont be noticed.

Well after Greece, i think the EU has had to take notice of these little transgressions.

 

[fez]

What did the Irish government think would occur?

Actually what the hell do most EU nations think the EU does?

Seems to me like a lot of these countries think they can just skirt the rules because they're kinda small and uninfluential, wont be noticed.

Well after Greece, i think the EU has had to take notice of these little transgressions.

I have no idea what the irish government thought would occur but I don't think it was a hard decision on whether to do it anyway.

Make loads of money from apples tiny tax rate for a number of years. Sounds good.

EU puts a stop to it and we get a massive windfall. Go on then.

vs

Lets be good and keep our 12.5% corporation tax rate and make ummm literally nothing.

 

[RaohNS]

Have the Irish government appealed the decision of the EU to charge apple or not? Seen some places saying they have (believable) and some saying they haven't

 

[Tefal]

I have no idea what the irish government thought would occur but I don't think it was a hard decision on whether to do it anyway.

Make loads of money from apples tiny tax rate for a number of years. Sounds good.

EU puts a stop to it and we get a massive windfall. Go on then.

vs

Lets be good and keep our 12.5% corporation tax rate and make ummm literally nothing.

But by the looks of thinsg they didnt make loads of money.

They made barely 50 million as the rate worked out at 0.005%

 

[StriderX]

Pretty sure Ireland wont see much of this 13 billion either, they've shot themselves in the foot twice.

 

[dowie]

But by the looks of thinsg they didnt make loads of money.

They made barely 50 million as the rate worked out at 0.005%

I think they made plenty from VAT and a bit from income tax too

 

[Trifid]

I think they made plenty from VAT and a bit from income tax too

You also attract like minded companies.

 

[danielanthony]

I've worked for large IT organisations with sales offices in London, including deployment teams and admin staff, but all the financial paperwork going via Ireland so that the UK sales team don't book the sale in the UK.

This allows companies to claim that their UK sales teams 'refer' customers to their Irish based EMEA HQ who actually carry out the sale, therefore dodging all sorts of tax.

 

[413x]

Perfectly fair what eu are doing.
Ireland are in the eu so should be respecting eu rules.
I don't think these companies should get around tax rules full stop.

But really is too complex a system for me to understand and I'm sure the tax bill would be passed onto the end user anyway if every company had to pay the same tax.

Saying that you can see how it benefits individual countries to be tax havens if those around you aren't.
Must look bad to the average Irish citizen seeing the headlines that their country is supporting Apple avoiding a huge tax bill

 

[Tefal]

I think they made plenty from VAT and a bit from income tax too

What vat? Vat would have been charged in the countries the phones where sold in woulsnt it?

 

[englishpremier]

He means in terms of the workforce. Income tax on their wages plus VAT on many of the things they buy.

 

[dowie]

What vat? Vat would have been charged in the countries the phones where sold in woulsnt it?

I didn't specify phones, apple sell a range of products - not just phones and laptops. They have previously routed sales of digital content, apps, services through Luxembourg and Ireland. For example AFAIK MobileMe subscriptions would have been subject to an Irish VAT charge of 23% in the past and app purchases have previously been subject to some low VAT charge in Luxembourg. I believe this may have changed more recently.

 

[UTmaniac]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37259278

 

[StriderX]

They should just flat out remove Corp tax and just up VAT to like 40%, because we all know that everyone is forced to pay that if they want it.

Just tiresome discussing this crap, when the neoliberals think its hilarious to both be denouncing these naughty companies, yet take handouts/cushy jobs/tips/insider knowledge to give the companies an nice little loophole that somehow is "difficult" deal with.

This way companies have literally no reason to be little crappy countries to avoid something that doesnt exist, thus the only draw would be local wealth and knowledge.

 

[Tefal]

I didn't specify phones, apple sell a range of products - not just phones and laptops. They have previously routed sales of digital content, apps, services through Luxembourg and Ireland. For example AFAIK MobileMe subscriptions would have been subject to an Irish VAT charge of 23% in the past and app purchases have previously been subject to some low VAT charge in Luxembourg. I believe this may have changed more recently.

Ah ok i wasnt sure if vat always went to the country the item/service was being used in if you get me.

Like a say a phone, subscription and app is bought in the uk but all routed through the "apple international" in ireland that the 20% vat would go to the uk,.

Because otherwise wouldnt all apple sales include 23% vat not 20?

 

[achitophel]

What I love about this is the indigence of the Irish over the announcement.

They're basically bemoaning the EU's interference in their sovereign tax laws.

Is this the same Ireland that's been singing the praises of the EU for so long and is so proud to be remaining a member in the aftermath of the Brexit vote?

The EU's state aid rules have been clear for years and Ireland have obviously flouted them. You can't just pick and choose what EU rules and laws you want to obey and which you don't like and class them as "interference" in your sovereign affairs.

If you don't like it maybe you should have a referendum on leaving yourselves Ireland!

This issue is clearly too complex to be dealt with easily, but bear in mind that Member states still have complete discretion over tax rates.

The Commission's position is that Ireland's actions in not enforcing its 12.5% rate with Apple amounted to a sp[ecific, special deal with Apple and hence isn't covered by the exemption and amounts to state aid.

Commission's argument will probably fail, since I'm willing to bet that a host of other large US companies did exactly the same - once Ireland can demonstrated that Apple had no special treatment, I can't see the state aid argument succeeding.