Poll: WenGo or WenStay?

Is Wenger's time up?


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Soldato
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Everything is relative. Compared to you and me he is, comapred to Abramovic and City's owners he's not. As for our owners, we're on the outside trying to get into the CL and so far (despite what some think) they've been putting money into the club to help us improve. The test for our owners would be if we ever were in the position of Arsenal our Utd, where we were regularly qualifiying for the CL, would they continue to invest? My inclination is they'd be exactly the same as Kroenke and the Glazers - they have no real interest in winning on the pitch, they just want a return on their investment.

Anyway, lets keep this on Wenger. As I said in the weekend spoiler thread, Arsenal have reached a scenario where there's pretty much nothing Wenger can do. The players are no longer playing for him and the fans have gone too - they can win their next 3 or 4 games but the second they drop points again the atmosphere will turn again. The only two solutions would be a complete overhaul of the squad, giving Wenger a fresh start or a new manager.

I was under the illusion he had like £10b or something, maybe not. I think he spent like £700m on a massive ranch in the last few years, a few quid of that could have been invested in those negligible gains, as you say though, they have no interest in the silverware.

I disagree on the players not playing for Wenger, the situation isn't good at the moment, we need unity for sure. I've got an inclination the Arsenal players see Chelsea this season, Liverpool a few years ago and realise they want a bit of that, especially as Europe has been going so badly recently. I don't think they've downed tools yet...
 
Caporegime
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So why don't more people vent their anger at Kroenke then? the guy has a lot of money, he could compete with Chelsea and City if he wanted...but he has no interest in spending those extra % for silverware. It's negligible gains at the top you see, Kroenke has no wish to invest in those negligible gains..

Yas, seriously, destroyed his legacy? Arsenal are one of the biggest clubs in the world still. Such armageddon thinking that is, go watch some lower league football
Yes he has destroyed his legacy to me. You are the kind of fan annoys me. Go watch lower league football?? I actually do and those teams show a **** load more passion than arsenal do.

I know that Kroenke has no ambition other than to line his pockets. Thanks for pointing that out Sherlock. But if he sees his balance dropping by fans not paying stupid prices for tickets then I'm sure he will do something ie **** off back to his other crappy teams.
 

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I was under the illusion he had like £10b or something, maybe not. I think he spent like £700m on a massive ranch in the last few years, a few quid of that could have been invested in those negligible gains, as you say though, they have no interest in the silverware.

I disagree on the players not playing for Wenger, the situation isn't good at the moment, we need unity for sure. I've got an inclination the Arsenal players see Chelsea this season, Liverpool a few years ago and realise they want a bit of that, especially as Europe has been going so badly recently. I don't think they've downed tools yet...
Thing is, why would he spend that money, he only owns like 60% or there about of the club last I checked. Also I don't think he is a Arsenal fan. To him it is only a business, that is it. I hope Wenger stays and spends some money. If he has no plans on spending/changing, then I agree, it is time for him to go.
 
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Yes he has destroyed his legacy to me. You are the kind of fan annoys me. Go watch lower league football?? I actually do and those teams show a **** load more passion than arsenal do.

I know that Kroenke has no ambition other than to line his pockets. Thanks for pointing that out Sherlock. But if he sees his balance dropping by fans not paying stupid prices for tickets then I'm sure he will do something ie **** off back to his other crappy teams.

So if you know Kroenke isn't in it to win it, why do i never see you mention it, if it's so obvious n all, it makes no sense mate.

He really hasn't destroyed his legacy, if you were to ask Ian Wright, Ferdinand, Lineker & Murphy, the lads that do BT and MOTD, they would all say he's incredible manager, something isn't adding up here

Thing is, why would he spend that money, he only owns like 60% or there about of the club last I checked. Also I don't think he is a Arsenal fan. To him it is only a business, that is it. I hope Wenger stays and spends some money. If he has no plans on spending/changing, then I agree, it is time for him to go.

Great point, i wasn't sure how much he owned, i thought he might have owned more actually, makes even more sense now i suppose. The thing i get a little sad about (within reason) is Arsenal have an incredible thing here where a manager has put his life into a club, he's been at the club so long, it should be protected until he retires, there isnt enough loyalty at times. Maybe that's my weakness though, i am vehemently loyal to the people i love
 
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So if you know Kroenke isn't in it to win it, why do i never see you mention it, if it's so obvious n all, it makes no sense mate.

He really hasn't destroyed his legacy, if you were to ask Ian Wright, Ferdinand, Lineker & Murphy, the lads that do BT and MOTD, they would all say he's incredible manager, something isn't adding up here



Great point, i wasn't sure how much he owned, i thought he might have owned more actually, makes even more sense now i suppose. The thing i get a little sad about (within reason) is Arsenal have an incredible thing here where a manager has put his life into a club, he's been at the club so long, it should be protected until he retires, there isnt enough loyalty at times. Maybe that's my weakness though, i am vehemently loyal to the people i love
Something we definitely have in common then, maybe that is why I am not as quick to want to see him go. But then again I would not say I love Wenger or anything :)
 
Caporegime
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Hardly a decade, Arsenal reached the semi finals and quarter finals in 07/08/09/10 in Europe. They just could'nt get to the final again. The last 5 years have been poor though, Real Madrid didn't get out the last 16 for 7 years from 02 until Mourinho got in charge

We beat a crap Milan in 07/08 then got beaten by Liverpool. In 08/09 we barely beat Roma(penalties), then we beat Villareal, then got thrashed by Utd. In 09/10 we beat Porto before being thumped by Barcelona.

Suggesting these years were vastly better and we looked like we could win the thing would be ridiculous. Those years just had some significantly weaker teams that we managed to go up against. Back then we'd actually just beat the likes of Roma before still crashing out the first time we face a genuinely top team. Now we even struggle against the 'lesser' of the top sides, we moved to being beaten by Milan, Monaco, etc, as well as being thrashed when we meet a top team.
 
Soldato
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That's not true though is it, if you look at those "inferior" teams you mention and look at their ability that season, much like Monaco this season, they won't be rubbish sides, i could do some digging properly but i can't be bothered, i reckon i'd find these sides are solid with really good results in those group stages. Real Madrid weren't getting out the last 16 then. I know we got humped this season but it's just an accumulation of poor club unity over the last few years that's sorted of created that, also doesn't help that they've literally had the hardest teams the last 5 years, teams that went on to win it. What English clubs have been doing well recently in Europe? do you think that's linked to the intensity of the PL? Something to think about perhaps.

What did you make of Pep saying top 4 is like winning a trophy, pretty funny, he's not a good manager in your eyes though is he?
 
Caporegime
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"I can't be bothered to check if you're wrong, so I'll just assume you are".

In 07/08 Milan finished 5th, we beat liverpool in the league that year also. In 08/09 Roma finished 6th, Villareal 5th, we lost to Utd who actually won the league and were good that year. In 09/10 we beat Porto, who won the league in 03, 04, 06, 07, 08, 09, 11, 12, 13...... they came third in the year they beat us.

None of them were great great teams, all of them had a small portion of the budget Arsenal had.


As for banging on about Kroenke, money and how he's not investing.... the issue is he's not taking money out of the club. The money is there, the wage bill isn't far behind the 'rich' clubs at all. We're spending a lot, our wage bill has gone up by 100mil in the past 10 years, Kroenke didn't tell the club the wages couldn't increase, he didn't take 200mil of profit out of the club, there is a huge cash reserve sitting there that Wenger refuses to use, there is a squad filled with massively overpayed players many of whom aren't remotely close to good enough.

But more importantly, Spurs are winning right now... again. They are 7 points off a phenomenally performing Chelsea side, we are 21 points behind that same Chelsea side, 14 behind Spurs. Spurs spend a LOT LESS THAN US.

You don't have to have money to be better than we are.... and we have that money anyway, there is no excuses here. It's got precisely nothing at all to do with Kroenke. He gets paid what is a very small wage for a majority owner and it's probably a wage that allows things like, residence in the UK whenever he wants, no visa issues and ability to maintain insurance. IE it's probably a legal requirement as much as anything else.

Arsenal could be doing a lot better spending exactly nothing more than we are now, we know this because Leicester and Spurs are did/are doing better with far less money. Leicester are doing better in the CL than us spending maybe 1/3rd of what we do on wages. I've also mentioned this repeatedly, but a long term manager has monumental financial advantages over a 'new' manager. A manager comes in at City and wants to change the entire style of the team, it might require replacing both CBs, both fullbacks and 2-3 central midfielders, that costs money. Every time a team changes manager there is an inherent cost, hell there is the inherent cost of effectively paying two top tier managers as they are paying redundancy and the new guys wages.

Guardiola hasn't installed the people he thinks are the best to be in charge of his youth system, he has had literally no say in who has been brought in and may be getting ready to be in the team for the next couple of years because he wasn't at City before this year. If 10 youth players come in for preseason and all suck, that is on previous managers, when 10 youth players come in for preseason and suck at Arsenal... that is 100% on Wenger.

Guardiola couldn't wait 4 years for some promising 18yr old's contract to end, having talked to his agent the whole time then bring him in to City... Wenger can. Wenger doesn't have to gut the team to change the style every few years and as such also doesn't have a team of players who are all on sub 2 year old contracts which as wages increase every year... cost more.

We show zero benefits that we should have from a long term manager, our recruitment has gotten worse, not better, the longer Wenger has been at Arsenal, our youth system has a pitifully poor output while a team like Southampton produces far more players and more profitably. We have plenty of money, we just don't use it effectively. The problem is Wenger and nothing else. His tactics are poor, his judgement of players he's buying has gone down the hill, his complete inability to train a defence to be a truly solid unit who all know what to do has been a joke for a decade. basically no players improve at Arsenal any more, in fact many seem to regress and we've had 10+ years of major injury problems which still hasn't been addressed properly. This all falls at Wenger's feet and a director of football won't help here, if Wenger is choosing the players he wants now, and will under a DoF, but the DoF might do more contract/negotiation... then nothing will change, we'll still be buying mostly the wrong players. A DoF won't change how Wenger coaches a defence, won't change who is in charge of our pathetic youth system and won't change Wenger's performance in terms of training and improving players.
 
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I'm going to say 2 things, 1st, don't use league positions, use results within the champions league, it's a much better gauge of that team is like in the competition, some of the results will be interesting, like i said, look at Monaco this season, or Dortmund

2, i dont agree about Kroenke, he has no interest apart from making huge sums of money from the increase in popularity in football, if Kroenke were to sell to a Chinese businessman or something, you'd see so much more investment into winning. Those new owners at Inter are going to go off on one, AC Milan have just sold to some Chinese as well, wait a few years and watch how those clubs will grow in the CL again, why? Because the Chinese love their football, that American doesn't. You can certainly see the Italian league getting stronger if a lot Chinese start buying up those clubs.
 
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Caporegime
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But that is neither here nor there, Kroenke ISN'T taking money out of the club. The club has plenty of money, we spend that money, our wages absolutely dwarf Spurs, Dortmund and Atletico yet look what they are achieving. Money isn't the ONLY part of success, and 'buying' success in a very short period of time costs vastly more than achieving it over time with good planning and buying well. Monaco bought Martial for £6-8mil and was it a year later, maybe two, sold him for potentially 8 or so times that amount.

'New money' gets spent poorly in a desperate attempt to buy success in a short period, comparing City or Chelsea 'building' spending is worthless, 70-80% of the money they wasted was on players who left after 1-2 seasons, who weren't good enough and it wouldn't have made much difference if the clubs bought them or not. Some of City and Chelsea's best buys were great value, Cech and Robben were great deals, as was Lampard iirc, while Kezman or coke head whose name I forget, Crespo, Bogarde, a dozen central midfielders who came and went and another dozen strikers who barely ever saw more than a handful of games before leaving were just wasted money. This was money they spent.... because they had it, but had not a huge amount to do with how the clubs got better.

Arsenal have money that Wenger is reluctant to spend, and we have money that Wenger hasn't been reluctant to spend, that is, he's been happy to drastically increase the wage bill by offering higher and higher wages to worse and worse players, he just doesn't like to take big risks in the transfer market.... any more, because when he was successful he DID take bigger risks, not 40mil for a single player risks, but selling Overmars and Petit for two far far cheaper players was a risk. Back then he saw two top players and believed we could do better and got insane value for it, now he hangs on to players who we both can easily do better than and we could get cheap players who are far better than many of the players we have.

We don't have a billionaire owner willing to spend 100mil extra a year putting us into long term debt to that owner... big whoop, most clubs don't have monumentally rich owners, and many of the clubs that have had insanely rich owners have failed and gone back to spending within their means. Chelsea, City both spend within their means now, a couple Russian clubs with big money flopped hard and took a massive hit. Monaco tried to go uber big then had to cut way way back. Monaco have been focusing on cheaper youth players, making a pretty hefty profit from player sales and improving the team. The idea that you have to spend 100mil or something more than we do now to improve is simply absurd. Many teams have become better than us while spending much less.
 
Soldato
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As a MUFC supporter, Wenger must stay.
If he leaves, AFC may become title contenders and I just don't want that to happen.
While Wenger stays, they won't be winning the title anytime, in the next 10 years.
 
Soldato
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But that is neither here nor there, Kroenke ISN'T taking money out of the club. The club has plenty of money, we spend that money, our wages absolutely dwarf Spurs, Dortmund and Atletico yet look what they are achieving. Money isn't the ONLY part of success, and 'buying' success in a very short period of time costs vastly more than achieving it over time with good planning and buying well. Monaco bought Martial for £6-8mil and was it a year later, maybe two, sold him for potentially 8 or so times that amount.

'New money' gets spent poorly in a desperate attempt to buy success in a short period, comparing City or Chelsea 'building' spending is worthless, 70-80% of the money they wasted was on players who left after 1-2 seasons, who weren't good enough and it wouldn't have made much difference if the clubs bought them or not. Some of City and Chelsea's best buys were great value, Cech and Robben were great deals, as was Lampard iirc, while Kezman or coke head whose name I forget, Crespo, Bogarde, a dozen central midfielders who came and went and another dozen strikers who barely ever saw more than a handful of games before leaving were just wasted money. This was money they spent.... because they had it, but had not a huge amount to do with how the clubs got better.

Arsenal have money that Wenger is reluctant to spend, and we have money that Wenger hasn't been reluctant to spend, that is, he's been happy to drastically increase the wage bill by offering higher and higher wages to worse and worse players, he just doesn't like to take big risks in the transfer market.... any more, because when he was successful he DID take bigger risks, not 40mil for a single player risks, but selling Overmars and Petit for two far far cheaper players was a risk. Back then he saw two top players and believed we could do better and got insane value for it, now he hangs on to players who we both can easily do better than and we could get cheap players who are far better than many of the players we have.

We don't have a billionaire owner willing to spend 100mil extra a year putting us into long term debt to that owner... big whoop, most clubs don't have monumentally rich owners, and many of the clubs that have had insanely rich owners have failed and gone back to spending within their means. Chelsea, City both spend within their means now, a couple Russian clubs with big money flopped hard and took a massive hit. Monaco tried to go uber big then had to cut way way back. Monaco have been focusing on cheaper youth players, making a pretty hefty profit from player sales and improving the team. The idea that you have to spend 100mil or something more than we do now to improve is simply absurd. Many teams have become better than us while spending much less.

I think Kroenke will be taking money out of the club, just like the glazers will be when they turn it round for like a > half a billion quids worth of profit. I think it's naive to think these guys won't be, there is a philosophical difference to how they approach the club compared to the chinese, russians & arabs. The clubs need to be run in the black, just so they survive, but some of the clubs have a definite advantage to how far owners are willing to go. The mentality as well as the deep pockets.

I think it's a lot harder to than you realise to keep a club near the top 4, year in, year out. These players that youre talking about that aren't worth the money, i presume OX is regarded as one of them, reports are Klopp has agreed to sign him, what do you make of that? Also talking about Atletico there, i'd agree that Arsenal have to be looking at him and the work he's done there, surely they'll talk to him, that's a separate issue to Wenger though. Simeone wasn't leaving though, he wants to win the CL with them..
 
Soldato
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It's really hard to accept and admit, but it is time for change. I've always stood by Wenger's stubborn reluctance to change. The problem is that the way to be successful, especially in the Premier League, has changed. Wenger seems to not want to accept that. He wants to play "proper" football, which I respect and also want, but the problem is that you are not ever marked on playing the right way and then losing. Possession football is becoming less important. Look at Leicester winning the PL. They didn't have 70% each game. They played with heart and were clinical when they got chances. They played counter attack. Look at teams like West Brom. Ok it was ugly direct football and set pieces only, but they came away with a win. That's because they wanted it more. We have no leadership. The players constantly strive to go sideways and not forward. It's just so far from the invincibles it hurts now.
 

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It's really hard to accept and admit, but it is time for change. I've always stood by Wenger's stubborn reluctance to change. The problem is that the way to be successful, especially in the Premier League, has changed. Wenger seems to not want to accept that. He wants to play "proper" football, which I respect and also want, but the problem is that you are not ever marked on playing the right way and then losing. Possession football is becoming less important. Look at Leicester winning the PL. They didn't have 70% each game. They played with heart and were clinical when they got chances. They played counter attack. Look at teams like West Brom. Ok it was ugly direct football and set pieces only, but they came away with a win. That's because they wanted it more. We have no leadership. The players constantly strive to go sideways and not forward. It's just so far from the invincibles it hurts now.
Yea :(
 
Soldato
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Kroenke shouldgo and wenger should stay

Let usmanov take over he will demand players

A lot of arsenal fans were crying out for klopp and guardiola, well what are they doing? Man city have gone backwards since last season and klopp cant get liverpool consistant
 

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Caporegime
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Kroenke shouldgo and wenger should stay

Let usmanov take over he will demand players

A lot of arsenal fans were crying out for klopp and guardiola, well what are they doing? Man city have gone backwards since last season and klopp cant get liverpool consistant
+1

The aggressive fans should be hold up kronke out signs, not wenger out.
 
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