We have been over this before, in other threads, i won't be going around in circles.
Police fired at in Champs Eleysee
- Thread starter Hades
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Caporegime
Well, maybe I haven't religiously read every one of your Pulitzer winning treatises on race, religion and crime. Humour me by repeating yourself, or link your previous posts.
Soldato
Makes sense in the general sense, they are what they are, but (as I'm sure you're aware) there are also times when it doesn't make sense to use that term, in its collective group sense, when discussing the actions of only a fraction of that group - which is why people use the term 'radical islam'.
Yes, I understand what you are saying and i know that.
e: I'll add that if it was a different religion then the same applies.
Soldato
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Wow, what a bigotnazixenlamophobe!
As mentioned above we need more people like him. Well done to him.
Honestly I don't really see that as such a massive issue as others do. It's not exactly unexpected for people of similar cultures and mindsets to end up living in select communities. It's no different to the British "enclaves" in places like Spain, where people live amongst other Brits, pop to the local store to buy the Sun and down to the British run "pub" for their Sunday roast and pint of British beer. No different to the British/western expat communities in places like the Middle East and south east Asia where they will generally congregate together.
While it's not ideal it's not exactly a hard reason to work out why people do it, especially first generation/new arrivals from very different cultures.
As you say we are generally an open and inclusive people, but that doesn't solve every problem, there will always be bad people. The point we need to remember is they are the minority and we should not be acting against the majority because of the minority (not this is the same premise I'm using regarding bulk data collection and targeted data collection).
Electing someone like Le Pen however is just going to increase divisiveness and create an aura of worry that is just going to separate communities from the rest of society.
How about actually debating the points I'm making rather than playing buzzword bingo.
Why do you think we should backtrack on 1000 years of British history and law to deal with a small number of people?
I can only assume you don't actually have any legitimate argument, hence the reason you wrote what you did.
And you wonder why I suggested you may get along with a group of people that did pretty much exactly what you are advocating. Ignoring the rule of law and the judicial system and just "disappearing" and throwing out people on an arbitrary basis, because you "believe" they are bad.
If you can't see why this is such a bad idea then I'll repeat what I said before - either have a read and try and understand what you're actually saying in the congress of British history and the current system, or please leave the UK for some wherelike Saudi Arabia or Russia that are far more amenable to what you are suggesting. I don't think many people in the UK would like your suggestions for turning 1000 years of British law and order on its head.
I have not said anything of the sort, i said desperate measures for desperate times\events, simple, politicians can change the law or add to it, if you are a danger to the country you reside in then you are locked up or sent back to where you came from, this would be written in law by the people who are in charge, not done in secret, all open and free to scrutinize who and why we are kicking out or locking up, it does not have to be a permanent solution, it can be temporary until we have a grasp of what is going on and that the danger becomes less frequent.
I heard on the BBC the other day that France has at least 15000 people on a terror list, you are on that for a reason, so out you go or you are locked up until the security forces have got this under control, because at the moment, it is not under control, especially in Europe.
If Marine Le Pen wins in France she is going to do exactly what i have said above, are you saying the millions that vote for her are idiots and wrong?
I would like to see a public vote on it, because i think you are wrong and a very large number of people would support measures to be put in place if they were given the chance to vote on it.
Let the mods put a vote on this forum, simple question, should we kick out\lock up anyone on an Islamic Terror Watch List, answers are yes or no.
Lets see which way this forum would vote or are you going to accuse us all and the millions of Marine Le Pen supporters as being followers of Hitlers brown shirts like you tried to accuse me of being a few pages back.
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that is rather different - they're expats rather than immigrants for a start, secondly it is more the Middle East than South East Asia tbh.. where that happens - if you go to Singapore or Hong Kong for example you're not necessarily going to be living in an expat enclave. On the other hand if you go to Saudi then they quite deliberately want to keep westerners segregated in compounds and in Dubai you'll outnumber the locals.
Caporegime
It's not just confined to first/second generation immigrants though. Keep in mind as well these generally aren't expats - they're immigrants. People who have chosen to come here. If I was to head elsewhere in the world then I certainly wouldn't do it to mirror the UK. The whole point in moving would be to embrace a new culture or lifestyle.
I'm also not defending any Brit that does the same.
I used to frequently go round to the house of a friend of mine as a child. He lived there with his parents and grandparents. Grandparents were both 1st gen, both parents 2nd gen. Neither grandparent (both his dad's dad and dad's mum) spoke a word of English. The pair of them had been in the UK for 30 years. His mum didn't speak a word of English. Only his dad. All conversations in the house were in Urdu. How do you manage to live somewhere for 30 years and not pick up even a sniff of the language without deliberate and intentional isolation?
Heck, even the moronic Brits in Spain at least pick up Cerveza and Por Favor!
It is these communities which foster views and cultures very different from our own and it's no wonder that some of them become enclaves of behaviour which is not tolerated here (or tbh in the countries that these people descend from!). Take the crap in Oldham and Rotherham as examples.
That is exactly what I've just said, you're justifying setting aside a primary tenant of British society and law because it's a "temporary" desperate measure in desperate times. That's exactly how the actions of the political militias of many dictatorships are justified. Again, hence the reference to brownshirts - they used exactly the same style of argument.
Of course governments can change the law, it doesn't mean it's right, or that it isn't just a repeat of history like as the actions in Italy and Germany in the 30's. The governments of the time changed the laws, so rounding up of opponents, and other "undesirables" was ok then according to you?
I would fund that interesting too, but lets make the question "should we kick out\lock up anyone without trial on a Terror Watch List". Again why are you so insistent it should only be those on islamic terrorist lists, are other terrorists ok?
A lot/most of expats are permanent immigrants. And why is it different? People have moved to a place with a largely different culture and as such are more comfortable living with similar people. If it's the term expat you have a problem with then I'll just call them immigrants, which they are. I'm an expat, and an immigrant for example. I'm a British expat, but a Canadian immigrant. Someone moving permanently to the UK from India is an Indian expat, but a British immigrant. There's no difference.
Yet these communities still go to school in the UK, in UK schools teaching in english, socialising with people from the UK as well as their communities. These people shop in supermarkets/British shops, will usually work in the British economy. I assume the second and third generation were/are fluent english speakers? At what age did the first generation arrive?
It's not ideal but tbh it's fairly understandable and the reality is in the majority of cases there is little/no detriment to society as a whole in it. My point was (not very well put as it was late!) that making up draconian laws directly designed to affect only a certain group of people for no really legitimate reason is going to alienate these people even more, as well as those that are fully integrated with British society. Things like banning clothing items, or building styles are not going to do anything but make people feel unwelcome and become more insular in their own communities. On the other hand programs aimed at specific groups designed to help integration are beneficial.
I'd also suggest that the whole point is not to embrace a new culture and lifestyle. Most people move to make a better life for themselves and their family, that doesn't mean they have to jump wholeheartedly into the culture of the receiving country and ignore their own culture (within the rules of law of that country). So many people seem to just want immigrants to just cast aside their entire earlier existence because it they don't like "different" people.
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there is a difference and you've ignored it with your false premise of "A lot/most of expats are permanent immigrants." in the context of the Middle East that simply isn't true, in some cases it is incredibly difficult to get citizenship of a Gulf state even if you're a fellow Arab from say Palestine and are born there.
Westerners in the Middle East, which is what we're talking about not Canada, are not immigrants.
Someone coming from say India or Pakistan to the UK however will frequently be an immigrant wanting to settle here, start a family etc... not a temporary worker/expat cashing in on the tax free income, enjoying the lifestyle before moving back.
I'll again point out that in the case of some parts of the Middle East the segregation is by design and in others the expats outnumber the locals.
So your issue is largely the terminology and it's relation to one of the locations I mentioned?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expatriate
An expatriate can mean a temporary or permanent move from your country of origin.
While I'm not going to argue that a large proportion of those moving to the middle east are likely to be temporary workers, it's worth pointing out that not all are/will be and I didn't just mention the middle east.
The point I'm making, which I'm not sure if you're just trying to obfuscate, is that people from all areas of the world, when moving to other locations generally tend to congregate together. Whether that be Indians/Pakistanis in the UK (or french for that matter) or Brits in places like Spain, the middle east, SE Asia or Africa, or any other nationality/group moving to somewhere else, its a similar trend. That doesn't mean you can't integrate because of that.
It certainly doesn't help, but it's an understandable side effect of this sort of thing, whether it relates to race, culture, religion, profession, income or a myriad of other factors that can help define who you are.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expatriate
An expatriate can mean a temporary or permanent move from your country of origin.
While I'm not going to argue that a large proportion of those moving to the middle east are likely to be temporary workers, it's worth pointing out that not all are/will be and I didn't just mention the middle east.
The point I'm making, which I'm not sure if you're just trying to obfuscate, is that people from all areas of the world, when moving to other locations generally tend to congregate together. Whether that be Indians/Pakistanis in the UK (or french for that matter) or Brits in places like Spain, the middle east, SE Asia or Africa, or any other nationality/group moving to somewhere else, its a similar trend. That doesn't mean you can't integrate because of that.
It certainly doesn't help, but it's an understandable side effect of this sort of thing, whether it relates to race, culture, religion, profession, income or a myriad of other factors that can help define who you are.
the terminology wasn't very relevant but the meaning, I simply chose to use those words to emphasise the difference however it is the difference that was important - Westerners in the Middle East being both temporary and in cases such as Saudi encouraged to live separately in compounds. You also mentioned south east Asia however in that case I'm not sure your premise is correct to begin with - people who emigrate to say Singapore or Hong Kong won't necessarily isolate themselves form local culture for example.
what you're trying to do though with this argument is present a false equivalence - there are legitimate issues re: the isolation of some parts of the muslim community distinct from that of other ethnic groups
what you're trying to do though with this argument is present a false equivalence - there are legitimate issues re: the isolation of some parts of the muslim community distinct from that of other ethnic groups
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...es-remain-isolated-men-keep-marrying-foreign/
top three are muslim countries and take a look at the male/female difference
top three are muslim countries and take a look at the male/female difference
Again you're picking specific countries on the more extreme ends to try and prove a point that's not particularly relevant to the discussion (i.e. Saudi).
As for SE Asia, honestly I wasn't really thinking about Singapore and Hong Kong, which are in general pretty similar culturally and as such are likely to be the least community driven places in SE asia (and even then they are likely to have certain areas that expats end up living). What about places like Indonesia and the Philippines which are culturally very different to western Europe and North America?
As for Spain, which is another example that I used - https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/27/brexit-threat-to-spains-secret-little-britain is an example. We don't see it as such an issue as we're British, so "obviously" other cultures should bend to our will, whether we are in their country or they are in ours.
It's also not about isolation, it's largely about support systems. As I've already said it's generally about having something similar around you in a very different culture, something to lessen the culture shock. It's a similar reason Brits do the same thing in other countries, even if you're insistent that it's not the case. It's so you can get support from others similar to you, have access to things like shops that sell the food you're used to, the papers and books you can/usually read or the social activities you did back home. It doesn't matter if you're a Brit in Spain or an Indian in the UK.
As for the isolation point (and your second post) I'm not sure why you're disagreeing with me on those points. I've said several times now that I'm not arguing that it isn't an issue/ideal, I'm pointing out there are more reasons than just people wanting to be isolated - and the overall point was that passing rules that make people living in these areas even more likely to be insular is just making the issue worse.
I assume that is pretty much entirely first generation (well I hope so!), which is unfortunately a feature of the immigration. People moving in their 30s an older are far less likely to be able to just pick up a brand new language fluently having never practiced it before. As for your male/female comment, that is again (unfortunately) to be expected. Women in general are less likely to go out and work and as such be forced to learn English as much as men. The overall employment rate of women in 2013 was 67.2%, and below 60% 30 years ago whereas men are at around 80% and have been for a while. Women in general are out of the house less, and that's in UK "culture", let alone more conservative cultures.
So to sum up i'll quote myself from my initial post on this branch of the discussion.
no you did that by trying to bring up these pointless comparisons in the first place when @Dis86 was making a fairly valid point re: integration in the UK - I simply quoted you and pointed out that in the case of the Middle East it is partly there by design and partly because they're temporary workers and that in SE Asia it isn't much of an issue. Saudi and the UAE are two of the biggest destinations in that region
I'd disagree re: the Philippines and suggest that Indonesia is again a similar scenario to the Middle East - regardless there are hardly huge numbers from the UK looking to permanently emigrate and settle in the Philippines.. it is pretty irrelevant for you to bring up. You could bring up Bangladesh - a very large number of Brits live there though you'd find they are well integrated and speak the language.
As for Spain it there is the effect whereby some areas are hosting big retirement communities and are already set up to cater to brit tourists to the point where all the locals speak English there too - on the other hand for people who want to emigrate there and start a family they send their kids to Spanish schools and learn to speak Spanish etc..
This is a cultural issue, look at the next figure re: Chinese immigration, Eastern EU states for example.
I gave examples that I still believe are relevant. you don't believe they are relevant. It wasn't a definitive list as I've pointed out several times now. You haven't yet provided any evidence to back up your point. It's convenient to you that you believe communities in area of significantly different cultures are also ones you believe are essentially forced to live in set areas*. And that's the point, we excuse brits for doing it, because obviously they wouldn't want to live amongst the locals with a different culture, but then we judge those that come to the west from those cultures and tend to stick together.
As for Spain, again it's using the same excuses. There are a lot of Spanish that get grumpy about the english enclaves as well, for the same reason people get grumpy about the Pakistani and Indian "enclaves" in the UK. Do you not also think that most of the younger immigrants to the UK send their there kids to english schools and learn to speak english?
You'll have to explain your last line, there seem to be just as high an issue with english speaking from those areas as well. If you're talking about the disparity (or lack of) between male and female english speaking in Chinese and eastern European communities then that may (in part) be down to the fact that English is taught in schools, and school uptake is high in those areas. For example Eastern Europe has some of the best English speaking proficiency in the world https://www.indy100.com/article/the...english-as-a-second-language-best--ZJalH9OTug and in China English is also an important subject in schools http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/beijing/2013-11/14/content_17112871.htm . Pakistan and Bangladesh don't have the same schooling system as either of them, and women are generally less likely to be able to go to school, even if English is taught. It's a far more complex issue than just "cultural issue".
That in no way is saying that cultural issues aren't part of the problem, as I'll quote myself from my last post again.
But again, I'll go back to the main point of the original post, if you'd care to answer - do you, or do you not agree that making draconian/divisive laws that disproportionately affect/are aimed at a particular election of society - such as the banning of certain items of clothing or architectural styles (which Le Pen is in favour of) - will cause communities to become more introvert and create greater separation between these communities and society in general? So far you've gone off on a tangent twice now and ignored the actual point.
*I agree Saudi is one of a few special cases, but it's one of only a few, not the majority where Brits tend to congregate together.
As for Spain, again it's using the same excuses. There are a lot of Spanish that get grumpy about the english enclaves as well, for the same reason people get grumpy about the Pakistani and Indian "enclaves" in the UK. Do you not also think that most of the younger immigrants to the UK send their there kids to english schools and learn to speak english?
You'll have to explain your last line, there seem to be just as high an issue with english speaking from those areas as well. If you're talking about the disparity (or lack of) between male and female english speaking in Chinese and eastern European communities then that may (in part) be down to the fact that English is taught in schools, and school uptake is high in those areas. For example Eastern Europe has some of the best English speaking proficiency in the world https://www.indy100.com/article/the...english-as-a-second-language-best--ZJalH9OTug and in China English is also an important subject in schools http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/beijing/2013-11/14/content_17112871.htm . Pakistan and Bangladesh don't have the same schooling system as either of them, and women are generally less likely to be able to go to school, even if English is taught. It's a far more complex issue than just "cultural issue".
That in no way is saying that cultural issues aren't part of the problem, as I'll quote myself from my last post again.
But again, I'll go back to the main point of the original post, if you'd care to answer - do you, or do you not agree that making draconian/divisive laws that disproportionately affect/are aimed at a particular election of society - such as the banning of certain items of clothing or architectural styles (which Le Pen is in favour of) - will cause communities to become more introvert and create greater separation between these communities and society in general? So far you've gone off on a tangent twice now and ignored the actual point.
*I agree Saudi is one of a few special cases, but it's one of only a few, not the majority where Brits tend to congregate together.
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