• Competitor rules

    Please remember that any mention of competitors, hinting at competitors or offering to provide details of competitors will result in an account suspension. The full rules can be found under the 'Terms and Rules' link in the bottom right corner of your screen. Just don't mention competitors in any way, shape or form and you'll be OK.

AMD VEGA confirmed for 2017 H1

Status
Not open for further replies.
Soldato
Joined
13 Jul 2004
Posts
20,079
Location
Stanley Hotel, Colorado
As for prices, you have to compare like for like. how much does 12GB of HBM2 cost compared to 12GB GDDR5X? It is a complete fallacy to believe faster memory allows to to use less.

AMD is arguing differently, to optimise the textures as a cache not an absolute storage. Speed might be related but really its going to depend on how well they predict correctly which textures will be used in the next frame.
So if a game level has listed 10gb of textures possible, but each frame concurrently uses only 2gb of textures they propose to juggle from the slower storage the 10gb into the 4gb of memory so that it is no disadvantage. Its brains not speed so much, deep learning related ? I dont know how effective but nice if it works.

Its a fair argument if you consider open world games, if someone breaks the game and teleports from one area to other spots immediately outside the design of the game it becomes obvious that any card struggles to acquire the textures and you get blank models or very poor LOD or blurring. They've exceeded the game parameters, AMD says they have improved learning of textures loading in normal games.

Its an old idea I'm sure I read similar intentions a decade ago, more recent: https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1799575323610310&id=100006735798590
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11892030

It was the reference cooler that made them seem hot.
The reference cooler is slim enough to easily allow multiple cards, more elaborate designs can lose convenience I guess
 
Soldato
Joined
28 May 2007
Posts
10,070
A GTX 780, but that's been sold and going to its new home this Thursday.

So I will be without gpu for a bit. I game at 2560x1080 75Hz. So presuming I'll need something with more grunt than an X80 card for those frames at that res.

The 580 does a half decent job at 1440p so would be ok at your resolution. For me though i would want to go that bit higher like a 1070 or Vega. I like to just about doub;le my performance every upgrade to get that night and day feeling.
 
Associate
Joined
8 May 2014
Posts
2,288
Location
france
AMD is not a charity, they have to make healthy profit to reinvest in R&D, start paying off their $2bn loans, and start making their investors happy. Now trading some profits for market share may help in the future its no guarantee of future revenue, e.g. if nvidia make a more compelling product then AMD will still loose sales. Besides which, market share will come naturally if there is a good top-to-bottom lineup of competitive products on time, with good release drivers and closer developer relations.
what they are doing now is the charity, happy investors ? well how happy are they for the last 5 years with the current policy ? the break they had with their stock came from Ryzen, not Radeon.
and seriously what's the point of selling 2 or 3 times less product than your competitor ? when market share is paramount to your strategy that introduces new features and techs that need Developer backup ? and no the market share doesn't come naturally, that might be the case for a new company coming to market, not a company, that accumulated a bad enough mindshare, that ppl laugh at you when you suggest their products, this problem cannot be fixed with marketing, because ppl are not unaware of your brand, but in their mind your brand = bad, that's the key here.
again AMDs driver have been good for more than 2 years, even better than Nvidia, how did that work out ?
AMD have been working with Devs, they even intriduced free library with GPUopen, how did that work out ?

Not having an answer to pascal for a year is costing market share and mind share. Having similar products to Nvidia at similar prices would have netted them plenty of sales and profits. Trying to undercut Nvidia pricing is very risky, nothing stops nvidia lowering prices if NVidia feel that they are loosing sales. the fact that Nvidia frequently don't hit AMD's price levels is a sure fact that Nvidia know they wont gain more sales so ultimately it is just costing AMD profits. Which is exactly why AMD have said they need to escape form being known as this budget brand, it doesn't ultimately gain them much.
you just made my case here, even when they had a slightly cheaper product within range performance 780Ti vs 290X they still lost market share, when they had a product priced similarly to Nvidia 980Ti vs FuryX, they still lost market share.
AMD has never been that far behind in performance it always was 10-20% which is ok, so the problem didn't just appear when AMD stoped their line up at polaris with no high end, talking about polaris , Nvdia sold 2 or 3 times more 1060 than 480s, and AMD was going to sell a lot less, they are lucky that pre-launch the card got trending because of the 199$ announcement, which was a bit spoiled by a slightly slower card than expected, then the release of 1060 that came 20-50$ more and with less than 10% performance advantage in DX11...sold twice more...
and again even you cannot argue with the fact that even if Vega is faster than 1080Ti, the latter will outsell the former, now how scary is that for investors and for AMD ? knowing that no matter how good your product is, the competitor will outsell you, that's insane.
you practically suggest for AMD to keep doing what they are doing, and to me it's clearly not working.
last point in a price war AMD is far more sustainable than Nvidia, AMD have diversified markets not just desktop and pro, but CPU and consoles, so even if all they do is break even they will manage profit by other means, but Nvidia cannot, if they break even on their product what are they left with ?shield revenue ?...
AMD cannot guarantee to have crowned flagship for 2 or 3 generations, which is what they need to turn this around, but if they do well then, they can keep the pricing they want.
but if they cannot guarantee that, which is more likely, disrupting the performance per dollar for the competitor's crowned flagship, is the most safer way to turn this around, will hit hard their bottom line, but at the rate at which they are selling it's practically change compared to what they stand to gain in futur products.
 
Last edited:
Associate
Joined
24 Mar 2012
Posts
1,736
Location
Im In Me Mums Car
The 580 does a half decent job at 1440p so would be ok at your resolution. For me though i would want to go that bit higher like a 1070 or Vega. I like to just about doub;le my performance every upgrade to get that night and day feeling.


Yeah that's what I thought :(. I would have gone 1070 a long time ago if they had supported FreeSync, otherwise I'm locked to 60fps unfortunately.
 
Associate
Joined
8 Oct 2013
Posts
868
Nvdia sold 2 or 3 times more 1060 than 480s

People keep saying that the 1060 outsell the 480 by some massive amount like this, do we have any solid numbers for this ?. Iv seen retailers say that the 480 does/did sell very well and has been a good money maker (in fact I am pretty sure gibbo said somthing along those lines but cant be 100%).

Yes I can see the 1060 selling more units overall ... but 3 times more ? that's a bit of a stretch :p
 
Soldato
Joined
12 Feb 2009
Posts
4,326
People keep saying that the 1060 outsell the 480 by some massive amount like this, do we have any solid numbers for this ?. Iv seen retailers say that the 480 does/did sell very well and has been a good money maker (in fact I am pretty sure gibbo said somthing along those lines but cant be 100%).

Yes I can see the 1060 selling more units overall ... but 3 times more ? that's a bit of a stretch :p

It's probably steam survey, but they are forgetting steam doesn't do mining. It wouldn't surprise me if sales for mining out strip gaming for the 470/480. The GTX 1060 isn't that great for mining, 1070 would be the better option if you were to go down the Nvidia route.
 
Soldato
Joined
28 May 2007
Posts
10,070
Yeah that's what I thought :(. I would have gone 1070 a long time ago if they had supported FreeSync, otherwise I'm locked to 60fps unfortunately.

With Freesync then a 580 would probably give you that night and day feeling over the 780. In some games the 780 is now around the 7970 level and in others it competes not to bad. Have a look here at Guru3d. The 780 does not feature much if at all but there is 780ti and titan which are a fair bit faster. You can extrapolate where the gtx780 is by removing 10-20% of the performance.

http://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/msi_radeon_rx_580_gaming_x_review,11.html

Offcourse you need to take in the overclocking off the 780 if your into that. With Freesync i doubt you would be disappointed in the 580 but Vega which i am assuming will be a really nice step up would be more the wow factor.
 
Associate
Joined
8 May 2014
Posts
2,288
Location
france
People keep saying that the 1060 outsell the 480 by some massive amount like this, do we have any solid numbers for this ?. Iv seen retailers say that the 480 does/did sell very well and has been a good money maker (in fact I am pretty sure gibbo said somthing along those lines but cant be 100%).

Yes I can see the 1060 selling more units overall ... but 3 times more ? that's a bit of a stretch :p
yes as said above from steam survey, also a video from linus's survey for his site, it's small but consistent with steam.
we will at least agree that it outsells it by a significant amount.
 
Soldato
Joined
28 May 2007
Posts
10,070
People keep saying that the 1060 outsell the 480 by some massive amount like this, do we have any solid numbers for this ?. Iv seen retailers say that the 480 does/did sell very well and has been a good money maker (in fact I am pretty sure gibbo said somthing along those lines but cant be 100%).

Yes I can see the 1060 selling more units overall ... but 3 times more ? that's a bit of a stretch :p

If Amd's market share is around 28% then i would says it's over 2-1 in sales ratio but no where near 6-1 like some proclaim. That would make no sense at all. 3-1 i can see but i would say that's the max. At a 3-1 ratio that would give Nvidia 75% of the market share in this bracket.
 
Associate
Joined
5 Jun 2016
Posts
7
Its stupid but the longer I hold out for Vega, the more and more tempted I am to pick up an X80 Polaris card instead.

The closer it gets, the more tempted I become.

Sick of waiting now :mad:

Someone over at Reddit has bought up a nice theory of the release date... The star called Vega (the real one, out in space) is 25.05 light years away from Earth... so Vega will be released on the 25th of May :p
 
Soldato
Joined
28 May 2007
Posts
10,070
Someone over at Reddit has bought up a nice theory of the release date... The star called Vega (the real one, out in space) is 25.05 light years away from Earth... so Vega will be released on the 25th of May :p

It's just about as good as anything from Wccftech and they will probably catch on and roll with it. Computex or E3 is also a decent bet.
 
Soldato
Joined
9 Nov 2009
Posts
24,841
Location
Planet Earth
AMD can't afford to suffer tiny margins on high end parts. They need profit in order to reinvest in future generations. AMD have repeatedly said they don;t want to be seen as a budget brand.

And if AMd really want to have Vega come in $200 cheaper the competition then they should have dropped the idea of using HBM, that has forced them to be in a position where they can't win a price war.

I think the main problem is that AMD prioritised CPU R and D over GPU R and D a few years ago,as the CPU part of the company was really what was destroying them. Looking at the consoles and some of the features they had - I expect AMD used those contracts and those with Apple to develop some of the IP which was reused for the discrete desktop parts - even the use of HBM type tech seems to have been put in motion like six years ago,but with probably little of a backup plan in case HBM/HBM2 was not quite ready yet. This is why I think Nvidia managed to navigate the failed 20NM process node better than AMD,as they have more room for contingencies over AMD currently.

Whether AMD can make similar margins to higher end Nvidia parts - its hard to say,but I suppose the optimistic viewpoint is to worry less about Nvidia and more about increasing margins over existing products. If anything I just hope Vega is a more solid launch event than say Fuji or Polaris,both of which were not helped by stock cooler issues,which for me made them look worse than they were.
 
Soldato
Joined
28 May 2007
Posts
10,070
Yea on the last bit at least put a cooler on that does not throttle your chip, make it sound like a hair drier and run hot enough that some might think it's going to explode. Seriously is this so hard to get right. It just needs to be good enough to avoid this like Nvidia do without crapping all over your AIB's who want to make a superior design. I mean Nvidia's stock cooler ain't great but it's upto the job and that's all it needs to do.
 
Soldato
Joined
9 Nov 2009
Posts
24,841
Location
Planet Earth
Yea on the last bit at least put a cooler on that does not throttle your chip, make it sound like a hair drier and run hot enough that some might think it's going to explode. Seriously is this so hard to get right. It just needs to be good enough to avoid this like Nvidia do without crapping all over your AIB's who want to make a superior design.

Its not helped by it happening with Hawaii,Fiji and Polaris stock coolers having issues(basically the last three major launches which had stock coolers). I mean I can appreciate putting on better coolers(or making sure QC is up to scratch) does cost more money,but at the same time it is kind of short sighted,as the value of the product is depreciated meaning people want to pay less. What Nvidia does is make reasonable blower coolers which are effective enough,but not quite as good as a proper AIB design.

Edit!!

Not saying Nvidia does not have cooler issues either,but I think if AMD can get a solid launch on the implementation side it would give less leeway for nit-picking during reviews.

The reason I say this is because the AIB models tend to come a bit later and first reviews will be with the reference model.
 
Soldato
Joined
28 May 2007
Posts
10,070
Its not helped by it happening with Hawaii,Fiji and Polaris stock coolers having issues(basically the last three major launches which had stock coolers). I mean I can appreciate putting on better coolers(or making sure QC is up to scratch) does cost more money,but at the same time it is kind of short sighted,as the value of the product is depreciated meaning people want to pay less. What Nvidia does is make reasonable blower coolers which are effective enough,but not quite as good as a proper AIB design.

Edit!!

Not saying Nvidia does not have cooler issues either,but I think if AMD can get a solid launch on the implementation side it would give less leeway for nit-picking during reviews.

The reason I say this is because the AIB models tend to come a bit later and first reviews will be with the reference model.

+1 Get this right and it's half the battle.
 
Soldato
Joined
9 Nov 2009
Posts
24,841
Location
Planet Earth
+1 Get this right and it's half the battle.

Yeah,its why I am less worried about the "delay" - I would rather it launched in a better state with the cooler,drivers,QC in all place unlike with Fiji which was rushed forward. Its better to go with your best foot forward IMHO. Also I wonder if Project Quantum will make another appearance - this time with a mini-ITX Ryzen board(Biostar has just released one) and Vega GPUs.
 
Soldato
Joined
28 May 2007
Posts
10,070
Yeah,its why I am less worried about the "delay" - I would rather it launched in a better state with the cooler,drivers,QC in all place unlike with Fiji which was rushed forward. Its better to go with your best foot forward IMHO. Also I wonder if Project Quantum will make another appearance - this time with a mini-ITX Ryzen board(Biostar has just released one) and Vega GPUs.

Definitely a possibility with them using HBM 2 and the rumoured A.I.O water cooler. Will most likely see another Nano as well which for me was the best Fiji card as at least they had a claim to be the fastest card for small form factors.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom