McLaren Honda

[Dup]

I don't know why they didn't just let all the teams have free reign on engine development for a season or two so the engine spec can mature.

Seems daft to introduce such a huge change in engine spec and then lock down the development almost immediately, as this is the cause of these problems for Honda and Renault whose customer teams aren't overly happy. It should take multiple seasons to close this gap. I'd rather engines were unreliable in the cutting edge of performance not unreliable AND slow at the very least. We want to see teams pushing it to eek out much needed tenths over a close rival. We're not seeing that.

 

[drunkenmaster]

I don't know why they didn't just let all the teams have free reign on engine development for a season or two so the engine spec can mature.

Seems daft to introduce such a huge change in engine spec and then lock down the development almost immediately, as this is the cause of these problems for Honda and Renault whose customer teams aren't overly happy. It should take multiple seasons to close this gap. I'd rather engines were unreliable in the cutting edge of performance not unreliable AND slow at the very least. We want to see teams pushing it to eek out much needed tenths over a close rival. We're not seeing that.

Jesus, really, still. Engines were barely locked down, more over any part of the engine was changeable via rules on reliability OUTSIDE of the tokens.

Honda are in their third season and STILL can't make a good engine, but you think unlimited development would have somehow changed things? What makes people think that if they can't make a great engine in what is now 3.5 years, that if development was unlimited the engine would be massively better much quicker?

They had the CHOICE to make big changes for last year, they CHOSE to double down on the small compressor in the V, it was a choice. Honest to god nothing is winding me up more in the past two years than people blaming the rules for Honda's choices and their own incompetence. There was exactly nothing within the rules that stopped Honda improving the engine. It took Renault 3-4 months during the 2015 season to fix a faulty piston design. These things don't get made overnight. If they were allowed to scrape each and every part of the engine every two weeks for a brand new engine, it would still take over a year, well over a year, to design each part new.

 

[Deleted member 651465]

Interesting video - but we also know (I think) that Honda have turned down the power available from the engine to try to improve reliability, surely once / if thats fixed they will be able to turn the engine back up so video becomes redundant , no?

No real point on trying to find out the deficit on an engine running at 1/2 power (for example)

At Bahrain quali, Merc were 205.7 mph through the speed trap vs Honda's 199.8 mph. That's a 6mph difference in a straight line.. how much power roll-off does that equate to? Impossible to say.

Drag squares with speed, so ignoring downforce for a moment, I'd say they would need a much larger amount of power on-tap to reclaim anywhere near that level of difference in speed. Probably too much, even with the Honda screaming at 100% load.

 

[FrankJH]

At Bahrain quali, Merc were 205.7 mph through the speed trap vs Honda's 199.8 mph. That's a 6mph difference in a straight line.. how much power roll-off does that equate to? Impossible to say.
.

and yet they still lost......

Once Honda are able to actually race at full speed with decent reliability then worry about outright speed

 

[Deleted member 651465]

and yet they still lost......

Once Honda are able to actually race at full speed with decent reliability then worry about outright speed

Way to miss the point?

Honda will need more power than their engine is likely capable of delivering to match Ferrari/Merc. Unless of course they've turned it down by more than ~40-50%?

 

[The_Abyss]

Power delivery isn't linear. Whilst we shouldn't get excited, let's see what happens on the next upgrade at Barcelona / Canada.

 

[FrankJH]

Way to miss the point?

Honda will need more power than their engine is likely capable of delivering to match Ferrari/Merc. Unless of course they've turned it down by more than ~40-50%?

Actually you missed mine!!

the mph of one car to another doesnt always matter as much as it should, due to other factors coming into effect both in a straight line and around corners.
Honda have bigger issues than a 6mph speed deficit, ONCE those are resolved then they can look at the deficits (if there are any)

 

[cu3ed]

Power delivery isn't linear. Whilst we shouldn't get excited, let's see what happens on the next upgrade at Barcelona / Canada.

Oh dear then.

 

[The_Abyss]

So, the upgrade for Canada isn't happening.

http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12...-limit-with-honda-as-zak-brown-issues-warning

Zak Brown looks to be running out of patience.

(Time to place a small bet on Sauber winning the constructor's championship in 2018 )

 

[Dup]

I think the writing is on the wall. They've not got it right in 3 years, one update mid season isn't going to make it a front running car and they would be seriously clutching at straws if they did.

They'll lose Alonso and end up running two rookies next year, instead of paying Button enough money to stay interested in F1. Whatever decision they make in this 90 day window they mention, it will effect what they run next season, not what they run till the end of this so there will be no indication of future performance with whatever power unit comes their way. McLaren really are in thick deep doo doo for the next few seasons IMO.

 

[GravyMonster]

Ron Dennis is right - you cannot win in F1 without a works engine deal. However the Honda has been such a bag of crap for the last 3 years a Mercedes, or even Renault, customer engine would be a huge upgrade to make the team at least competitive in the upper midfield. That's how low they've sunk now. It's not about winning championships, it's about avoiding literally pointless seasons.

 

[dannyjo22]

Ron Dennis is right - you cannot win in F1 without a works engine deal.

Yeah if you are stuck in the past with the old engine rules. Recently his team got their backsides handed to them by Brawn as a customer who had weeks to slap an engine in and Red Bull consistently spanked Renault. The problem is Mclaren, works engine or not they just plain suck for spend to results. They had a works engine a great one with Mercedes for years and won next to nothing. Merc struck out on their own and dominated like no one ever has, building the best cars to have probably raced.

Ron should look at his own pile of suck first.

 

[vanpeebles]

Yeah if you are stuck in the past with the old engine rules. Recently his team got their backsides handed to them by Brawn as a customer who had weeks to slap an engine in and Red Bull consistently spanked Renault. The problem is Mclaren, works engine or not they just plain suck for spend to results. They had a works engine a great one with Mercedes for years and won next to nothing. Merc struck out on their own and dominated like no one ever has, building the best cars to have probably raced.

Ron should look at his own pile of suck first.

Totally agree with this, the whole thing is a mess of Mclarens own making. Honda are been made a scapegoat for Mclarens poor choices and decision making.

 

[MooMoo444]

Whatever bad decisions McLaren make are regardless. Honda haven't been able to supply an engine that is competitive. The #1 component in a racing car is faulty. Honda are far from a scapegoat. They haven't delivered.

 

[vanpeebles]

I don't think there is a company in the world who could walk in cold to a championship that has an engine of that technical complexity, and expect to be on the podium in the first few seasons.

Why doesn't McLaren make their own engines?

 

[MooMoo444]

I too think winning or podiums are a big ask, but they are struggling to finish races. They don't even fight for points positions. That's not defensible in their third year.

 

[Emlyn_Dewar]

They struggle to even start races this season...
Absolutely pathetic that they have been unable to get the update ready for Canada.
Are Honda dedicating any resource to their F1 engine program at all?

 

[V F]

I too think winning or podiums are a big ask, but they are struggling to finish races. They don't even fight for points positions. That's not defensible in their third year.

They struggle to even start races this season...
Absolutely pathetic that they have been unable to get the update ready for Canada.
Are Honda dedicating any resource to their F1 engine program at all?

To think back in years, HRT and Caterham were better than McLaren today.

 

[MissChief]

The deadline for notifying the FIA of your engine for next season has passed and can only be changed with the agreement of the other teams. Unless Ferrari and Red Bull are supremely confident in their own car and drivers one or both of them could easily say no. McLaren also get around £100m in funding from Honda and Honda also pay Alonso's rumoured $30 million annual salary. Considering a Mercedes annual customer engine contract is rumoured to be around €15-€20 million a season McLaren would need to find around €150 million to plug the shortfall. Without a current title sponsor. Which is only likely to bring in £20 million tops. It could be financial suicide for McLaren to drop Honda.

 

[MooMoo444]

Alonso has said he will stay at McHonda if they are challenging for wins by September. Basically just announced he is leaving in other words...

Without a top driver they really will be doomed.