Time to increase taxes?

Associate
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Efficiencies before funding increases is fine if you are working in a business where lives aren't at stake. I work in such a business and my job is creating efficiencies. I wouldn't be so hasty to apply the same rule to the NHS.

I want the NHS to have as much funding as it needs to operate as intended. The efficiencies can be worked out later, which can then mean lower taxes, taxes being spent elsewhere, or the NHS being able to more with the same funding.

If the NHS needs more funding, I as a tax payer would be happy to pay more tax. However, I would want that tax burden to be on fellow higher earners who can afford a hit to their disposable income vs lower earners where it is more likely to hit living expenses. I'm not talking about a 90% tax on earnings over 45k for example, as that has clearly been shown in the past to not work and create a brain drain. Humans are naturally competative and we live in a capitalist society, therefore very high levels of tax on higher earners doesn't make sense. OcUK translation - I'd happily wait a few more months for a pc upgrade If I thought my tax money was being spent well funding the NHS, but I would still want the ability to upgrade If I were lucky enough to earn a decent wage.

My fundamental belief is that one of the main reasons for having a government is the protection and representation of the masses, and to make the decisions that best suit society as a whole. The idea of a publicly (government) funded health service is completely in line with my beliefs. I believe corporate social responsibility is much more prevalent now, but the reason for that is not just good will from senior management but also due to governmental legislation and the desire to be seen to be doing their bit for society to investors and customers. I think independent charities are great and I donate accordingly, but I do not think they and businesses should be relied upon solely for health care or other socially beneficial efforts.

Doing so would for example mean that you would run the risk of the most popular charities prevailing over those that may still be in need. For example, pet charities having more funding vs a charity for a particular disease (note, I love animals so this is just an example rather than me saying I hate doges).

It also would run the risk of putting social care in the hands of senior management who may not be accountable to anyone, and may not be democratically chosen by those they are helping. Therefore their help may not correlative with what society needs.
 
Associate
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Inflation is at 3%, public sector salary hikes have started, private sector is creeping up, minimum salaries have already determined hike-schedule.

As long as government doesn't increase Personal Allowance & Higher rate boundaries, this will in effect be a tax hike.

Coming from a nordic country I feel that public services in UK are pretty bad. (Roads, other public infrastructure, NHS, schools, etc.) Only thing that compensates is the fact that taxes are lower as well.
 
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I don't think our public services are bad, but possibly some aren't as good as Nordic ones I've seen (roads for instance).

Appreciate tax policy has meant well funded public services and a smaller variance in salary after tax. At least in Norway from examples and annecdotes I have heard. It sounds good but I do wonder if the same model would work as well in the UK. Just like I wonder if a more austere public pension policy would work well in Greece (might be too much of a change for society to happen at once, even if it more realistic).
 
Soldato
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Having worked both in the public sector and the private sector I can see why there are issues that are really hard to address.

Firstly I'd like to address the whole pension thing. Yes in the past public sector workers used to pay 1-3% of their income and get a some kind of final salary based pension. But this just isn't the case anymore, most of these schemes were withdrawn many years ago and are now paying 5-10% for a MUCH smaller pension which is much more in line with what you could expect in the private sector. General terms and conditions have been slowly eroded for the last decade and public jobs really don't have the same 'advantage' they once used to have. All the 'bliss' years in the public sector have long gone.

On to spending, if you spent a few years in the public sector you can see where money is just flushed down the toilet daily. Almost everything is leased, even if you plan on using it for most of it's useful life. Contracts are really expensive and incredibly restrictive, staff are not able to do the most basic of tasks because of them. There are still huge efficiency savings that could be made.

There is whole budget mentality, 'use it or loose it' regardless of if what you are using it on actually goes towards achieving your objective. I'm surprised that non of the media have done an investigation comparing spending on things like overtime, travel, office furniture, stationary, equipment etc in Feb/March compared to the rest of the year. These are all classic 'were coming to the end of the year and still have some money left items'. It gets spent regardless.

I do think a fundamental re-think needs to be done on the whole way the public sector is structures, it could so easily be made smaller with fewer organisations that are forced to work together more effectively. Why do we need over 350 different local authorities, a separate police and fire service for almost every county in England most of these largely work independently to each over but have huge overlap. It is only in recent years where they have been forced to work together but this could go so much further.
 
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Associate
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That 'use it or lose it' exists in the private sector and academia too. I think it is just how budgets work and how managers want to protect their budgets. Probably just seems like more of a waste when it's publicly funded.

I agree on the varying authorities working more closely (have felt the effects of this not happening personally recently). I also think a common working practice across, for instance, different health trusts would be very beneficial, as would shared digital resources and data. This is a large part of my job and I do this with global teams, so no reason the same thing couldn't work between Berkshire and Hampshire, or Devon and Cornwall.
 
Man of Honour
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That 'use it or lose it' exists in the private sector and academia too. I think it is just how budgets work and how managers want to protect their budgets. Probably just seems like more of a waste when it's publicly funded.

Its a pretty stupid setup - if they don't use it budget gets pulled down then there isn't the money there when they do need it. Highlights how ****** stupid the human race is.

Personally I'd like to see more money raised through taxation to support things like the NHS especially but its hard to justify it with the incredible amount of wastage and corruption that goes on and I know many people who have struggling with rising cost of living especially with 1-2 things that are fairly much essentials going up by crazy amounts in the last few years.
 
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I would question what method, if any, people are told to budget by. My guess is there is none prescribed to them, and the easiest thing to do is resort to protection of the budget. I wouldn't say it's stupid or lazy, might just require a bit of enlightenment and time to adjust (just like any change).

Personally I'd like to see more money raised through taxation to support things like the NHS especially but its hard to justify it with the incredible amount of wastage and corruption that goes on and I know many people who have struggling with rising cost of living especially with 1-2 things that are fairly much essentials going up by crazy amounts in the last few years.

I agree, which is why taxing higher earners is the better bet for generating more tax. I will have a look at some data, but having discussed this with some friends a few months ago and looking at tax revenues, even a small rise in the top income tax bracket affecting only the very wealthy few would net considerable tax gains. This also highlights what a large and beneficial impact the rich have on society by having large incomes which can be taxed, and is why balance in taxing them is needed to ensure they don't jump ship to another country or use accounting methods to avoid tax.
 
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Its a pretty stupid setup - if they don't use it budget gets pulled down then there isn't the money there when they do need it. Highlights how ****** stupid the human race is.

Personally I'd like to see more money raised through taxation to support things like the NHS especially but its hard to justify it with the incredible amount of wastage and corruption that goes on and I know many people who have struggling with rising cost of living especially with 1-2 things that are fairly much essentials going up by crazy amounts in the last few years.

Is there actually any real corruption in the process (at least at local level*, and waste?
Well apart from the waste inherent in every new health minister wanting to change things for the sake of being seen to do something or as a kneejerk reaction to a rare event.

We pay far far less for the NHS as a proportion of the GDP than many countries and get a better outcome than a number that spend a lot more (I was reading that the US pays more in taxes on the provision of healthcare per capita than I think we do in total per capita to provide it - although the US is a very poor example to look to in many ways).

At the very least we need to pay the staff better, as they've had an effective pay cut (along with many other public sector workers) over the last few years and actually invest in training more.


*I won't go into ministerial level or the farcical fairy tale accounting that is/was PPI.
 
Man of Honour
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In terms of corruption I was meaning in a more general way and in a wider context than just the NHS.

There is a fair amount of wastage and abuse of the system within the NHS as well - like the old trust hopping doddle to rig salary bands while doing the same job. While it is more individuals than a institutional thing there has been more than 35 cases pursued against senior NHS staff in the last 18 months or so for fraud and/or just dodgy dealing in general - just throwing some names out as an example: Alan Hodge, Katrina Percy, Peter Lewis, Jon Andrewes.

The last one is kind of funny as I know 1-2 people who had worked with him and by all accounts he was actually one of the better ones at his job and a far less waste of space than many who were actually qualified and working at that kind of level in the trusts involved.
 
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I say privatise everything then people can choose what they pay for. I wouldnt need to be paying for other peoples kids to go to school and have a healthy dinner when all their parents feed them is pizza and chips. Im not interested in the police either, i dont think they do a particularly good job. Fire service i would pay for. :D

so if i broke into your house and stole everything you hold value to, including your partner what would you do if you had no police?
 
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so if i broke into your house and stole everything you hold value to, including your partner what would you do if you had no police?

Not sure he knows quite what he is wishing for - certain parts of the US operate a bit like that and the result is for instance the only fire service available is volunteer based with delay getting to the scene and turn up with like 3 different fire appliances from different eras and several different lots of equipment and inconsistent levels of training (nearly 70% of US fire fighters are non-retained compared to something like 2% in the UK).
 
Soldato
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What a silly question. They would fingerprint the house, ask neighbours if they sore anything. Local second hand shops normally check items against a stolen list and also they would do a manhunt for the missing person.

It isn't silly, the police do not always attend a burglary, and even when they do it is sometimes just to give you a crime number for insurance purposes.
 
Soldato
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I say privatise everything then people can choose what they pay for. I wouldnt need to be paying for other peoples kids to go to school and have a healthy dinner when all their parents feed them is pizza and chips. Im not interested in the police either, i dont think they do a particularly good job. Fire service i would pay for. :D

+1
 
Soldato
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It isn't silly, the police do not always attend a burglary, and even when they do it is sometimes just to give you a crime number for insurance purposes.
Exactly this, through experience they don't do a lot except give you a number. Brick through window to steal keys. They arrived next day to take a statement and gave a number. Wasn't interested in any police work.
Got attacked once by an ex employee outside work, lunged at me with a knife, phoned police took them 25 minutes to drive around the corner literally round the corner. If it weren't for another work colleague helping me hold him on the ground he would have been away.
Actually regret not giving him a pasting as he only get a suspended sentence and forced to attend a drug/alcohol centre. So that's a strike for the justice system as a whole.
Phoned once to a break in and they said they couldn't attend and would send someone round the next day.

House wise, insurance is the worth while thing, police don't care, well they might if it involved a speeding car but i haven't dealt with them once and thought they were much use. Thats just my experience though it is all i can go off after all.
 
Caporegime
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Ok so the police need to "get more efficient"
Or have more share of the budget?
Britain has a huge population. 1% 2% 3% rises on the tax bands will do it.
It'll never happen because most people are so selfish.
 
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I emailed the chancellor about this the other day. I'll just paste it in because it sums up my view.


Chancellor of the Exchequer,

I believe the current income tax system discourages individuals from wanting to better themselves.

I was raised with the motto 'high merit, high reward'. I worked hard at school, university, and professionally, and now find myself paying the higher rate of income tax.

I thought the intention was 'the more you earn, the more you pay'. This is true of any income tax rate which is a percentage, brackets are unnecessary.

Income tax brackets are discrimination based on income. It is not moral to take money from someone because you have less, in other contexts it's called theft!

The higher rate suffers from serious bracket creep. The Conservatives won my vote based on their policy of adjusting the bracket - better than anyone else's policies, but not good enough.

Income tax and national insurance should also be combined. This should result in administrative savings.

The tax system should be easier to understand. Individuals should be able to calculate how much tax they pay.

The higher rate creates a culture of tax avoidance. I have to increase my pension contributions to reduce my tax bill. I could have used that income to better myself and my country.

I therefore request that you consider implementing a single rate of income tax.
 
Caporegime
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Well I live in hope for the uk.

In a post brexit return to the glory days of self rule and ... Whatever.

Maybe a government will see it as a good time to shuffle the tax systems deck.

Modernise the uk. A new start.

Or.

You are all ****ed
 
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