Why is the government entitled to a slice of our wages?

Soldato
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Income tax is totally fine. It's tax on tax that's the killer, even VAT for example which effects everyone but also things like stamp duty, inheritance tax, CGT, etc.

It's kind of crazy to think that after having 20-40% taken you need to cough up another 20% if you actually want to use and spend any of that.
 
Soldato
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Well, guess what, if there's no benefit to being a doctor no one will do it. Why would they put themselves through that training and difficult work if there's nothing in it for them? For the good of society? Yeah, good luck with that...
Some people would, you know to help people. Empathy. Why were there doctors in primitive civilizations?
 
Caporegime
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Well, guess what, if there's no benefit to being a doctor no one will do it. Why would they put themselves through that training and difficult work if there's nothing in it for them? For the good of society? Yeah, good luck with that...

I hate this argument its like there is literally nothing more to your life than getting 0s on a bank account.

hard jobs ain't hard if you are good at them, trained for them etc.
 
Caporegime
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I hate this argument its like there is literally nothing more to your life than getting 0s on a bank account.

hard jobs ain't hard if you are good at them, trained for them etc.
You may not like it, but it's true. People are paid according to how difficult their jobs are, how much training they need, how skilled they have to be, how rare they are as a result.

And yeah, good luck telling a doctor their job isn't hard. You can have all the training in the world, but it can still be difficult.
 
Permabanned
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Imagine we had no government. We each lived in a town with a little plot of land for growing food, and an animal each. We would gladly 'chip in' for the following:
- Roads
- Police
- Education
- Healthcare
- Military
.. you get the idea.

So yes, there are good reasons behind it.

Things that aren't right at the moment (IMO):
- The government doesn't use our money properly. E.g. pays extortionate prices for drugs. Hence always wanting to put more money into the NHS (read: into drug companies).
- The government does things we don't really want it to do. E.g. tell us how to live our lives (e.g. gay marriage).
- The government creates problems which we have to pay for. E.g. borrowing.

And my original complaint from the other thread...
- I think the higher rate of income tax should be scrapped.
- It isn't moral to take money from someone because they have more than you (aka stealing).
- It would have course be fine if it was voluntary, but it isn't voluntary.

Even the bloke who made the higher rate of income tax agrees because...
- The threshold was chosen to only include very wealthy people.
- The bracket has not been adjusted in line with earnings (bracket creep) so now includes people are not very wealthy.
- Had the bracket been adjusted it would be around £80k instead of £45k.
- And that was relevant in the housing debate because a mortgage of 4x £45k isn't enough to buy most houses in the south east. So we're defining very wealthy as 'cant afford a house' now.
 
Caporegime
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Climb Everest is a challenge, working 90 hr week as a junior doctor is hard work, not a “challenge”, the cherry at the end is where you get to be a consultant doing private work for the big bucks is what people do, I mean they all do it! Other wise all those doctors would choose to work at hospitals at the emergency room.
 
Permabanned
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btw I've spent my evening working out how to avoid tax.
Take that as a sign that the current system has a problem, whichever way you take it.

And don't get me started on the corporations who avoid paying tax almost entirely. If they paid the correct amount our current situation would be much different.
But this was about incomes... so maybe not the right thread for it.
 
Associate
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Basically the government is there to charge you for things you don't think you need but you actually do, and if they didn't they'd get no economies of scale. In a more lefty soft place like the UK it is to provide a safety net incase of the worst senario. How on earth it's the percentage it is today I have no idea. I think the government (a bit like the BBC are doing) should have an 'opt in' system, where you can pay for the services you actually use / want to support with a layer of services that are essential (E.g defense, health)
 
Caporegime
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btw I've spent my evening working out how to avoid tax.
Take that as a sign that the current system has a problem, whichever way you take it.

And don't get me started on the corporations who avoid paying tax almost entirely. If they paid the correct amount our current situation would be much different.
But this was about incomes... so maybe not the right thread for it.
I'm a corporate tax accountant. In my experience of speaking to lay people about this, and at risk of being condescending... you almost certainly have no idea about corporate tax avoidance or how much tax they should or shouldn't be paying.
 
Caporegime
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Income tax is totally fine. It's tax on tax that's the killer, even VAT for example which effects everyone but also things like stamp duty, inheritance tax, CGT, etc.

It's kind of crazy to think that after having 20-40% taken you need to cough up another 20% if you actually want to use and spend any of that.

Yeah, people say if you want a civilised population but this system obviously doesn’t work and doesn’t feel very civilised to me and in 2017 there must be a better way of doing things.
 
Soldato
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the problem is not the tax, the problem is the governments ability to lose so much of it in bureaucratic inefficiency.

it's like a large scale version of those garages that charge a mint because they only do insurance repair jobs, and because they charge a mint it makes insurance more expensive.

a good example is round here they've been spending quite a lot of cash building new dual carriageways, meanwhile pretty much all the other roads have been getting worse in terms of the distribution, frequency and magnitude of potholes.
 
Soldato
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I'm a corporate tax accountant. In my experience of speaking to lay people about this, and at risk of being condescending... you almost certainly have no idea about corporate tax avoidance or how much tax they should or shouldn't be paying.
A little condescending, you don't work for PwC by chance :)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-31147276


As I have said before, badge corporations based on the tax office opinion of their 'contributions' en masse, it'd be Interesting to see an enforced dirt brown tax badge on international corporations who avoid nearly all tax in the UK!

On tax in general, it could be a myth but it's been said that Germany's constitution means named taxes must be spent in their named areas, unlike the UKs approach!
 
Caporegime
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A little condescending, you don't work for PwC by chance :)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-31147276


As I have said before, badge corporations based on the tax office opinion of their 'contributions' en masse, it'd be Interesting to see an enforced dirt brown tax badge on international corporations who avoid nearly all tax in the UK!

On tax in general, it could be a myth but it's been said that Germany's constitution means named taxes must be spent in their named areas, unlike the UKs approach!
Not working for pwc at the moment, no...

Anyway. Avoidance is a consequence of bad tax legislation. Blame the government. It's also legal, so quite why everyone gets so worked up about it is a bit of a mystery.
 
Permabanned
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Avoidance is a consequence of bad tax legislation. Blame the government. It's also legal, so quite why everyone gets so worked up about it is a bit of a mystery.
Corporation tax is 19%. So when I see them not paying that it's very annoying. I realise the legislation allows it, and it's therefore the government's fault.
 
Soldato
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Not working for pwc at the moment, no...

Anyway. Avoidance is a consequence of bad tax legislation. Blame the government. It's also legal, so quite why everyone gets so worked up about it is a bit of a mystery.

I agree it's bad legislation, we could legislate any trading entity display a 'badge' of the tax office opinion of their contribution, rather than the whack a mole news story / campaigns (one of which impacted Amazon's practices).

Perhaps then we wont have people who work in corporate tax accounting, at large firms in such controversy and so far out of step with reality!
 
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