Poll: United States Grand Prix 2017, Austin - Race 17/20

[drunkenmaster]

Apparently Hamilton cut that corner pretty heavily on his pole lap. Probably gained a few tenths. FIA being consistent would be such a massive boost to the sport.

Wish they would slam hard on track limits. Those white lines are there for a reason.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHZzfUwtVhY

Except you know, no, he didn't, not even remotely close.

 

[drunkenmaster]

Gaining an advantage by cutting a corner is virtually always punished, unless the offending driver hands the place back.

Horner spouting off about how it's happened all weekend but, as Flibster pointed out, that's been running wide and not cutting corners.

He also, along with some others, raised the Bottas/Verstappen incident. That was the only other case where violating track limits gave a clear advantage and the only reason nothing happened was that Max immediately got past him anyway. Had he not then Bottas would have been told to hand the place back or also received a penalty.

Much as I like Verstappen's talent and general aggressiveness, this was a clear case of overtaking by going off the track and there was no alternative but to penalise him.
Good as he is, he's still immature and arrogant and thinks he can do whatever he likes. We've already had the incidents of weaving in braking zones last year plus the incident at Mexico where he clearly gained an illegal advantage. All anyone seems to remember of that is Vettel's incandescent rage at Charlie over the radio yet he had a valid complaint.

Verstappen needs to start understanding that the rules apply to him too and he can't just drive off the track to get past someone.

It's worth noting many many people cut corners this weekend and they all gained a lasting advantage. Ricciardo cut one multiple times as he tried to gain on Bottas before the backstraight, it means getting a tenth or two closer and reducing tire wear(as it's a much straighter run with less load on the tires). Sainz did it, Kimi did it multiple times.

Now think about the gap to Kimi, if Kimi has cut a corner a dozen times in the race and gained a few seconds total by doing it, when would Verstappen have caught up to him and had the chance to overtake, had Kimi been a few seconds back Verstappen would have had 2-3 laps to attempt to overtake him not just one corner.

Likewise if Bottas didn't come back at him like he did and he'd just gotten the move done in that one corner and been back on the racing line rather than defending, Verstappen probably lost a second or so having to defend, take a different line and not go anywhere near as fast as he could through that complex of corners.

ultimately it all has an effect and the distinction that a pass is more of an advantage than time gained in a sport all about the thousands of a second differences seems pretty arbitrary to me.

Sainz didn't make the move but was fully alongside Ocon while completely off the track which once again forced Ocon to be off the best line, hurting his tires more and defending hard rather than Sainz being on the track and having to be behind Ocon. I also think Sainz was cutting corners multiple times as he chased down Perez, had he not done so and it taken a few more laps to catch up, then maybe his tires are not good enough to make the pass on Perez.

F1 is about the smallest of margins lap after lap and multiple drivers cut corners throughout the race as well as running wide, others didn't.

 

[Jono8]

It's worth noting many many people cut corners this weekend and they all gained a lasting advantage. Ricciardo cut one multiple times as he tried to gain on Bottas before the backstraight, it means getting a tenth or two closer and reducing tire wear(as it's a much straighter run with less load on the tires). Sainz did it, Kimi did it multiple times.

Now think about the gap to Kimi, if Kimi has cut a corner a dozen times in the race and gained a few seconds total by doing it, when would Verstappen have caught up to him and had the chance to overtake, had Kimi been a few seconds back Verstappen would have had 2-3 laps to attempt to overtake him not just one corner.

Likewise if Bottas didn't come back at him like he did and he'd just gotten the move done in that one corner and been back on the racing line rather than defending, Verstappen probably lost a second or so having to defend, take a different line and not go anywhere near as fast as he could through that complex of corners.

ultimately it all has an effect and the distinction that a pass is more of an advantage than time gained in a sport all about the thousands of a second differences seems pretty arbitrary to me.

Sainz didn't make the move but was fully alongside Ocon while completely off the track which once again forced Ocon to be off the best line, hurting his tires more and defending hard rather than Sainz being on the track and having to be behind Ocon. I also think Sainz was cutting corners multiple times as he chased down Perez, had he not done so and it taken a few more laps to catch up, then maybe his tires are not good enough to make the pass on Perez.

F1 is about the smallest of margins lap after lap and multiple drivers cut corners throughout the race as well as running wide, others didn't.

This. In f1, every tenth gained is an advantage so over using the run offs etc all adds up.

 

[this_is_gav]

It may not have been lasting advantage but it did accelerate off the track, for me its the lack of consistency and also they need to remove some of these run offs as clearly they are too easy to abuse.

We need Eduardo Freitas in charge from the WEC at least they are mostly consistent.

I can't speak for him personally, but the ACO are only consistent when there's no French team competing.

The years Peugeot were competing in LMP1 had some of the most bizarre decisions in motorsport history.

 

[koolpc]

If Vettel had gone off to overtake you can bet your boots he would have gotten away with it!

 

[RSR]

I can't speak for him personally, but the ACO are only consistent when there's no French team competing.

The years Peugeot were competing in LMP1 had some of the most bizarre decisions in motorsport history.

This is very true, i'd forgotten about that. However, I know this year they have been very hot on people who go off the track and the times where removed straight away or warned straight away within a race.

 

[drunkenmaster]

Also Ericsson getting a penalty for Magnussen being ultra slow into a corner thanks to Vettel being very weird and refusing to take the tight inside line there. Ericsson went up the inside, Magnussen turns in on him and spins himself around, but we're at Cota so the guy who 'hit' a Haas gets a penalty, wtf. That is even more messed up than Ferrari getting preferential treatment.

Despite kinda hating Magnussen and him being a giant bag of ***** all weekend, Vettel pretty much screwed both of them there. The space was there and Ericsson had every right to move into it, he was fully alongside Magnussen by the apex, he had every right to space there but Magnussen didn't see him. Vettel dived back to the racing line for the corner very late, I think that made Magnussen break very early and be ultra slow so as he turned in he may not have seen Ericsson. I could understand a penalty for Magnussen or being called a racing incident, but a penalty for Ericsson, for being turned in on.... have we got a replacement Massa, not very fast, turns in on people and some how the guys he hit get the blame.

That penalty should be getting the kind of media coverage Verstappen's is, because ultimately Verstappen broke the rules and got penalised(even if they didn't warn or penalise others), but Ericsson did absolutely nothing but get hit and got a penalty, worst decision of the race by a mile.

 

[this_is_gav]

I love how a collision involving two lapped cars is still blamed on Vettel. This place is beyond belief sometimes.

 

[cuke2u]

If Vettel had gone off to overtake you can bet your boots he would have gotten away with it!

You would bet your boots that hamilton fanboyz would have coughed up their dummies...

 

[drunkenmaster]

I love how a collision involving two lapped cars is still blamed on Vettel. This place is beyond belief sometimes.

I'm not blaming him, I'm saying the result of him passing Magnussen very late then swinging infront of him late made Magnussen brake early which is what allowed Ericsson to close on Magnussen.

What is unbelievable is that in not blaming Vettel at all, and not saying he was responsible, you've decided I blamed him when I specifically stated it was Magnussen turning in on Ericsson.

99% of the time if you pass that late down the straight you don't swing across and jump on the brakes in front of a less good car, 99% of the time a passing car would just take the inside line, that would have blocked it for Ericsson and not caused Magnussen to brake early.

It was a poor move by Vettel, but he only created the situation in which Ericsson could pass Magnussen, he didn't cause Magnussen to turn in on Ericsson.

Even brundle as it happened said it was an incredibly strange move from Vettel to swing back to the racing line as aggressively as he did, Vettel was practically begging to be rear ended by Magnussen in doing that as Magnussen would have absolutely expected someone passing pretty much into the braking zone would stay on the inside.

 

[UTmaniac]

If Vettel had gone off to overtake you can bet your boots he would have gotten away with it!

Don't you remember Vettel being punished at Hockenheim a few years ago, for overtaking Button on the hairpin while all four wheels were beyond the track limits?

I can't recall who it involved, but there was a really harsh but good call at Hungary a few years back, the overtaking driver was centimetres wide of the track boundary after a very daring move at turn 4, the fast semi blind left.

Going back ~10 years ago, Alonso did an illegal overtake at Suzuka, so he let the other driver past and overlook them cleanly a few corners later.

While Lewis was at McLaren, he was deemed to pass Kimi at Spa in a dodgy manner and was given a post race penalty.

Dodgy overtakes don't happen that often, normally there is time for Charlie to tell the offending team to give the place back like in the Alonso and Vettel cases above, but Max's brave but dodgy move was in the final few corners.

 

[MooMoo444]

but we're at Cota so the guy who 'hit' a Haas gets a penalty

While I don't agree that Ericsson was at fault, I really doubt this had any motivation to the penalty...

I reckon Ericsson was well within his rights to try and follow Vettel through. Mags just wasn't looking and closed the door mid corner.

 

[Glaucus]

Hmmmmm

lol, are you really that incapable you cant see that they are massively different. one being pushed off the track whilst defending.
the other going off track for no reason whilst over taking.

need gravel traps back, when's the last time we saw an injury caused by gravel traps and these cars are even safer. or design something that will make you lose time and has a % chance of ending your race as well.

Don't you remember Vettel being punished at Hockenheim a few years ago, for overtaking Button on the hairpin while all four wheels were beyond the track limits?

.

however was it a close championship and would not giving a penalty close the championship point difference. FIA seem to do anything in their power to keep the championship going, even when a driver should receive a race ban..

 

[Wardyp]

You would bet your boots that hamilton fanboyz would have coughed up their dummies...

Vettel made the move on Hamilton stick by going all 4 wheels off the track, only reason nothing got said was because it was on the first lap.

Since SPA 08 overtakes performed outside the track limits will normally carry a penalty unless the driver gives the place back, it would be interesting to know if Max would have given the place back if there was 5 laps to go.

 

[413x]

Just to reiterate what has been said.

Either do or don't penalise.
Cutting the corner like that is gaining a lasting advantage (if those are the words) as a tenth saved is a tenth saved.

Personally I think he should have been penalised if everyone else who done it was.. But we know that's not the case.

Maybe they should change the rules to 'effects an immediate overtake'. Or.. Enforce it full stop if you gain time.

But, I know f1 will never be fair. So I'm not too bothered.

Really impressed by Sainz. But then palmer was no benchmark as everyone knows.

 

[MooMoo444]

interesting to know if Max would have given the place back if there was 5 laps to go.

He wouldn't have. Remember the '**** Charlie* event when Max took (kept) a place unfairly but didn't give it back? He doesn't seem that sort of guy.

 

[The_Abyss]

I really enjoyed the race - plenty of action and the right sorts of incident. Hamilton is just performing at another level now.

Completely agree with the penalty for Verstappen, and I think Horner's made himself look quit stupid with his reaction to it. There's a clear difference between running wide (which was tolerated all weekend) and cutting a corner to gain a lasting advantage (overtaking another car). A shame really, as it was a fantastic drive through the field.

Ferrari did pretty much everything they could, bearing in mind their car was slower on race pace. I felt sorry for Ricciardo - surely would have been on for a podium. His tussle with Bottas was awesome. Bottas only seems to come to life when either he's been overtaken or is at risk of being overtaken.

Really looking forward to the Renault engine in the McLaren next year. It might still be down on power, but if they can compete near the same level as Red Bull then we're going to have a lot more cars in the mix next year.

 

[The_Abyss]

Really impressed by Sainz. But then palmer was no benchmark as everyone knows.

Sainz had a great weekend. Hopefully the competition between him and Hulkenburg will sharpen both of them up. Or perhaps Sainz will take Hulkenburg to school and show why no top team ever signed him when they've had many chances to.

 

[MooMoo444]

Potentially the latter but it's hard to say. Hulk obliterated Palmer so we've not had a decent benchmark.

 

[RSR]

lol, are you really that incapable you cant see that they are massively different. one being pushed off the track whilst defending.
the other going off track for no reason whilst over taking.

Yes, they are different events I am fully aware of that. However, again its not consistent as if you got but the letter of the rule back you need to leave a car width of space.

The other thing a number of the drivers including Hamilton cut the corners and no lap time was taken away in qualifing, it can't be a constant moving goal.