Intel Preps Core i7 9700k 8 core 16 Thread Mainstream CPU

[4K8KW10]

They use a compound that is designed for longevity rather than performance, which is fine for the lower end of their product lines. They should be using solder for their 'k' versions and above imo.

When put between the die and the lid, the compound shouldn't age since it has no touch with any atmospheric air, it's tightly sealed there.
I have pastes with my CPUs (between the lid and the fan) which after 10 years are the same.
TIM under the lid should not age at all.

I wonder If some would be so forgiving if it was Amd using Tim and Intel solder?

No.

They cannot afford to, add 20c to a 4ghz 1800x and you'll be looking at the same we have with intel.

I suppose It's a good job they decided to use a superior method for their cpus so that their customers have a better more reliable product.

Solder cheaply gives AMD a competitive advantage and I think they promised this too - to continue using solder. They have never had any thought about changing it.

 

[muon]

I wonder If some would be so forgiving if it was Amd using Tim and Intel solder?

I think if Intel only did it for their lower end chips, especially non-K then we wouldn't have the conversation.

If AMD used TIM for Threadripper and the Ryzen 7 chips you would get the same.

 

[Hotwired]

Solder cheaply gives AMD a competitive advantage and I think they promised this too - to continue using solder. They have never had any thought about changing it.

https://www.facebook.com/OverclockersUK/videos/10155853543333349/

-20.55

Solder question answered by James Prior from AMD

 

[AndreiD]

@Hotwired He didn't really say anything there apart from some AMD marketing lines.

@Doobedoo AMD did use polymer TIM for their APUs:

When put between the die and the lid, the compound shouldn't age since it has no touch with any atmospheric air, it's tightly sealed there.
I have pastes with my CPUs (between the lid and the fan) which after 10 years are the same.
TIM under the lid should not age at all.

?????? Any TIM will degrade with thermal cycling...
Here's a paper published by Intel's materials science engineers 11 years ago on using indium to solder dies and some of the issues it brings.

 

[Silent_Scone]

There is hard evidence from all places that TIM has severely inferior thermal conductivity properties. Other pastes are also better. Intel use the worst possible compound.
Now prove otherwise.

Yes, hard evidence. That being you and others talking among themselves. Besides which it has absolutely nothing to do with what I just said. The question was why they're not using indium. No need to get defensive.

When put between the die and the lid, the compound shouldn't age since it has no touch with any atmospheric air, it's tightly sealed there.
I have pastes with my CPUs (between the lid and the fan) which after 10 years are the same.
TIM under the lid should not age at all.

As already said above, pastes will eventually dry out with thermal cycling (some after many years depending on the compound used), this has absolutely nothing to do with anything you've posted above. This is fundamental stuff, best not to draw too much more attention to that post.

 

[4K8KW10]

Yes, hard evidence. That being you and others talking among themselves. Besides which it has absolutely nothing to do with what I just said. The question was why they're not using indium.

Because using indium is the only way to solder?

There is hard evidence that delidding is being used. Why do Intel customers delid? Or I'm speaking about ourselves?

 

[DragonQ]

I wonder If some would be so forgiving if it was Amd using Tim and Intel solder?

Again, it's not necessarily the fact that it's solder, it's just that it performs much better. If Intel used the same TIM you get on "delidded" chips from OcUK then there'd be no problem. They don't, they use toothpaste.

 

[Hotwired]

@Hotwired He didn't really say anything there apart from some AMD marketing lines.

He said it wasn't necessary for AMD to differentiate between server and consumer cpus with use of solder or TIM (and this was about expensive CPUs not bottom end stuff) because their products were already well defined.

That's obviously a dig at Intel suggesting they are deliberately gimping their non-server lines to create a sales point for server chips over consumer ones.

As he was clearly siding with the soldering side it may be promising for the future that AMD won't be going down a similar route.

 

[4K8KW10]

I think Intel is downward spiraling right now. Bad decision after bad decision. Soon they probably will become fabless, and in the more distant future may become of AMD's current size.

 

[orbitalwalsh]

I think Intel is downward spiraling right now. Bad decision after bad decision. Soon they probably will become fabless, and in the more distant future may become of AMD's current size.

intel fabless... not in the next 50 years . will just go between the two companies for how makes the best products. dont think AMD or Intel will end up link AMD did in the last few years .

plus intel make vendors far to much money . why so much support is thrown their way for new product launches . AMD should get better support next generation- didn't help they sent out engineering samples which was no actual reflection of the finished product haha

lessons learnt for everyone

 

[Silent_Scone]

Because using indium is the only way to solder?

There is hard evidence that delidding is being used. Why do Intel customers delid? Or I'm speaking about ourselves?

Sorry, but you are flat out wrong and might want to do some research before you dig yourself any deeper. If you think you know more than individuals working on a 6 figure salary then you're in the wrong line of work.

The facts are:
Indium is chosen due to it's durable properties compared to other compounds. It's also very rare and expensive to mine. Gold, equally so. From an environmental standpoint, it simply makes more sense <to use paste> - excluding any of your unfounded nonsense regarding people having to replace their CPUs faster. If anything, that's also wrong on many levels, as the compounds used by Intel will outlive solder due to microcracks, as well as potentially damaging the CPU permanently.

Yes, the paste used does not have the same cooling capacity as some of the pastes available to consumers, but given these are not used commercially under the IHS, there is not enough data to show just how long these compounds last (because the IHS isn't vacuum sealed and impervious to degrading like you seem to think it is lol). You've told me to prove otherwise, when the onus is on you to prove why Intel shouldn't be using the paste they are.

The reality is there is a lot of focus on the environmental footprint and durability here. It's not all about cost cutting by any stretch. The only thing that is absolutely true, is that solder is a more effective cooling solution.

 

[4K8KW10]

intel fabless... not in the next 50 years .

Well, in 50 years, processors business will be so much different, that both AMD and Intel might not exist by then. Keep in mind that we are at the current limit of die shrinking and in the next 10 years something completely new should come alive. Not sure Intel will innovate the new way, though.

Is It Time For Intel To Spin Off The Fabs? https://seekingalpha.com/article/3460166-time-intel-spin-fabs

 

[Hagar]

The reality is there is a lot of focus on the environmental footprint and durability here. It's not all about cost cutting by any stretch. The only thing that is absolutely true, is that solder is a more effective conductor.

edit for accuracy.

 

[Silent_Scone]

edit for accuracy.

Thank you, although implied

 

[Hagar]

Thank you, although implied

I know, pedantic trousers on this morning.

 

[jigger]

It's pretty clear what markets Intel are focussed on and which are getting milked. Intel make enough money to solder every chip and charge enough for them IMO.

 

[4K8KW10]

It's pretty clear what markets Intel are focussed on and which are getting milked. Intel make enough money to solder every chip and charge enough for them IMO.

With chewing gum under the lid, they must be saving 5 cents max with every chip. So, yes, it doesn't make sense for these anti-consumer practices.
They are so arrogant to sell those K overclockable processors, and when those have problems with overheating, Intel trolls customers to stop overclocking their K processors.

Intel Says i7 7700K CPUs Shouldn’t Be Overclocked In Response To Countless Overheating Complaints https://wccftech.com/intel-i7-7700k-owners-flood-forums-with-overheating-complaints/

 

[jigger]

With chewing gum under the lid, they must be saving 5 cents max with every chip. So, yes, it doesn't make sense for these anti-consumer practices.
They are so arrogant to sell those K overclockable processors, and when those have problems with overheating, Intel trolls customers to stop overclocking their K processors.

Intel Says i7 7700K CPUs Shouldn’t Be Overclocked In Response To Countless Overheating Complaints https://wccftech.com/intel-i7-7700k-owners-flood-forums-with-overheating-complaints/

Yeah Intel have worked themselves into a medium term corner. People just need to take that on board and stop pretending we haven't seen it coming for the past 4-5 years. In 2021 and we should see some improvements and movement again. Until then this end of the market going to come down to value.

 

[WingZero30]

This should clear up a lot of confusion

 

[esoteric]

So a refresh, or extention of Coffee Lake-S is all we have to look forward too. From a gaming POV.