Intel bug incoming? Meltdown and Spectre exploits

DragonQ · 5 Jan 2018 at 18:09

DragonQ said:
Interesting, I didn't know you could basically force Windows to side-load CPU microcode updates. I plan to try this tonight and see if the results from Get-SpeculationControlSettings change at all, that is assuming there are any microcode updates for Westmere-EP in the first place!

I ran it with the latest Intel microcode files and got this message in Event Viewer:

An update for this CPU was not found. No update has been attempted.

So basically there is no chance of any new microcode updates for X58 CPUs even for this serious flaw, considering there haven't been any since at least 2012.

djbully · 5 Jan 2018 at 18:12

I installed the patch last night, on my system in sig. I have noticed A hit in performance of Forza Horizon 3. Have not changed graphics or settings at all. Forza Motorsport 7 however is still running sweet!

Not sure if it was the patch or something else! Everything else seems fine.

AndreiD · 5 Jan 2018 at 18:15

On Ryzen the patch shouldn't have any effect so it might be something else that's causing your FH3 slowdown.

murah · 5 Jan 2018 at 18:16

It affects more than just Intel CPU's sadly , AMD seem to be one of the few not hit.

synixx · 5 Jan 2018 at 18:26

I've downloaded the update and i've noticed a fair performance hit on my 2600k 4.5ghz and 7970 Ghz. Performance is a good 10% lower in Just Cause 3, from about 70fps average to low 60's, with frequent drops below 60 which weren't there before. Not too happy

thenewoc · 5 Jan 2018 at 18:36

My reg key is set to 0x00000000 (0) probably kaspersky set it but i'm not getting the Windows patch show up in WU.

Computer\HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\QualityCompat\cadca5fe-87d3-4b96-b7fb-a231484277cc

faceman123 · 5 Jan 2018 at 18:39

Caracus2k said:
AMD are not and have not been the top performance choice for gaming for over ten years for starters ?

so a couple of fps, but aside from this are there any benefits ? which outweigh the points i made?

gavinh87 · 5 Jan 2018 at 18:40

faceman123 said:
so a couple of fps, but aside from this are there any benefits ? which outweigh the points i made?

In some instances it is far more than a couple but lets not derail this thread.

TrixP10 · 5 Jan 2018 at 18:40

stockhausen said:
Surely any BIOS update is simply going to be a "workaround" to cope with a CPU vulnerability (on which the microcode can't be changed) and this will have a performance hit (perhaps minor) over and above the OS fix?

I have recently build a number of systems based on either the i7 7700 CPU (released Q1 2017) or the i5 7600K CPU (released Q1 2017); I take it that they should NOT need a BIOS update?

As an aside - I wonder how Intel CPU sales are holding up at the minute?

A quick look at Amazon.com best selling cpu's and Intel have two celerons in the top five. Does that say anything?

Caracus2k · 5 Jan 2018 at 18:44

faceman123 said:
so a couple of fps, but aside from this are there any benefits ? which outweigh the points i made?

This could descend into a what have the Romans ever done for us style exchange...

But I'll give you a second point.... AMD chips routinely have far lower overclocking headroom then their intel contemporaries...

I have both an Octo cored intel chip (as per sig) and a 1800x and had plenty of K6, 7 and 8's back in the day.. So don't have a that much of reason to be too biased..

If you have mm access a quick look will show a fair few people are ditching their ryzen setups...

Back on topic have patched all of my pc's have noticed a bit or a whack on my main server (xeon 1650v3) running virtual machines but that's about it

Steampunk · 5 Jan 2018 at 18:45

thenewoc said:
My reg key is set to 0x00000000 (0) probably kaspersky set it but i'm not getting the Windows patch show up in WU.

Computer\HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\QualityCompat\cadca5fe-87d3-4b96-b7fb-a231484277cc

Yeah, me too, a lot of people complaining about it on the Kaspersky Forums. Maybe they have it targeted for the original release date of the 9th and something will be changed so Kaspersky becomes compatible (though they have a knowledge base entry on their support site saying it already is).

opethdisciple · 5 Jan 2018 at 19:00

shankly1985 said:
Doesn't explain why I still have not received the Windows update though? I have the Allow Key from Avast in my Reg. Windows is fully up to date 1709 and I still waiting for the update.

I read somewhere that MS are waiting to release the update for certain systems. I guess waiting on the Antivirus vendors to catch up.

AndreiD · 5 Jan 2018 at 19:04

You should get the update within the next few days, it seems to have been pushed out pretty early and there are a few known issues with it.

faceman123 · 5 Jan 2018 at 19:09

Caracus2k said:
This could descend into a what have the Romans ever done for us style exchange...

But I'll give you a second point.... AMD chips routinely have far lower overclocking headroom then their intel contemporaries...

I have both an Octo cored intel chip (as per sig) and a 1800x and had plenty of K6, 7 and 8's back in the day.. So don't have a that much of reason to be too biased..

If you have mm access a quick look will show a fair few people are ditching their ryzen setups...

Back on topic have patched all of my pic's have noticed a bit or a whack on my main server (xeon 1650v3) running virtual machines but that's about it

appreciate that but aside from gaming intel gets out performed at every price point/ power draw, ryzen/threadripper would be a go to for editors/high end esp since this update can potentially impact high end users ( non gamers) dramatically

DragonQ · 5 Jan 2018 at 19:14

FYI, Linux 4.14.12 already includes the patch that disables PTI on AMD CPUs, restoring any performance loss.

drunkenmaster · 5 Jan 2018 at 19:24

DragonQ said:
I ran it with the latest Intel microcode files and got this message in Event Viewer:

An update for this CPU was not found. No update has been attempted.

So basically there is no chance of any new microcode updates for X58 CPUs even for this serious flaw, considering there haven't been any since at least 2012.

Yup, Intel is playing the "these cpus are working as intended" card and only offering support for modern/current cpus, so everyone else me included is boned for it. They obviously also realise that a lot of xeons and older systems in any kind of situation where security is required will help push people to upgrade. Some of them will chose AMD over this but not many because ultimately AMD only has so much production capacity.

Imagine selling millions, well billions worth of server chips and deciding the massive flaw in your chips is part of the design and those companies need to just upgrade to get secure when you could release bios updates and microcode but you decide to screw them over. If AMD knew this was coming I'd almost have wished they ported Zen to TSMC so they could increase capacity significantly as they can probably sell 2-3 times what they can produce just at glofo right now.

gavinh87 · 5 Jan 2018 at 19:29

drunkenmaster said:
Yup, Intel is playing the "these cpus are working as intended" card and only offering support for modern/current cpus, so everyone else me included is boned for it. They obviously also realise that a lot of xeons and older systems in any kind of situation where security is required will help push people to upgrade. Some of them will chose AMD over this but not many because ultimately AMD only has so much production capacity.

Imagine selling millions, well billions worth of server chips and deciding the massive flaw in your chips is part of the design and those companies need to just upgrade to get secure when you could release bios updates and microcode but you decide to screw them over. If AMD knew this was coming I'd almost have wished they ported Zen to TSMC so they could increase capacity significantly as they can probably sell 2-3 times what they can produce just at glofo right now.

I would not be surprised if intel actually do well out of this once its all blown over. Many people will want to upgrade and we know how strong brand loyalty can be, the VW emission gate comes to mind.

LoadsaMoney · 5 Jan 2018 at 19:41

Armageus said:
There are 2 separate vulnerabilities (Meltdown and Spectre), however there are 2 different exploits discovered against Spectre so far.

Meltdown: affects Intel CPUs and one Arm core – the yet-to-ship Cortex-A75 - this can be mitigated via OS updates (of which MS have released updates, and Linux updates are available)
Spectre variant 2: affects Intel and Arm cores. OS Kernels and hypervisors (i.e. VMs) need patching. Skylake (and later) CPUs need a microcode update (so potentially a BIOS update) to help mitigate this.
Spectre variant 1: affects both Intel and AMD CPUs, and certain ARM cores. It is difficult to exploit as relies on timing based attacks, but some measures are being taking by Software developers (e.g. Browsers already have a patch to make timers less accurate)

Paraphrased somewhat from:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/01/05/spectre_flaws_explained/

Edit:
Misread Skylake microcode clause

Im before skylake (on Haswell-E), so will i still need a BIOS update too ?

Its all very confusing at the mo.

ukxenon · 5 Jan 2018 at 19:42

I think it is going to take intel some time to get the confidence back from a lot of people and businesses

Jono8 · 5 Jan 2018 at 19:58

djbully said:
I installed the patch last night, on my system in sig. I have noticed A hit in performance of Forza Horizon 3. Have not changed graphics or settings at all. Forza Motorsport 7 however is still running sweet!

Not sure if it was the patch or something else! Everything else seems fine.

Are we sure that on Windows, the fix that slows things down is disabled for Ryzen?