Why the ballyheck do Brits not use winter tyres?

[Conscript]

I do think winter tyres should be mandatory for HGV’s - articulated HGV’s especially - I’ve just done a delivery in Nottingham and really struggled to get up a slight incline.

A german registered artic has just pulled in behind me and turned around with no issues (where I nearly jack knifed when I tried to do so) - his Mercedes tractor unit had winter tyres all round.

Given a lot of the problems are caused by HGV’s in these conditions I think it’s something the DVSA should consider,especially given swapping wheels / tyres is hardly uncommon in haulage, I’m surprised this hasn’t been looked at previously.

It won’t cancel out the idiots (plenty out in force today!) but it would help.

Question for you...there's been a few incidents I've heard of in this weather involving artics jack knifing. Happened at a busy roundabout near my house on Tuesday, and it brought the entire area to a standstill for hours.

Is it not possible to design artics so that they cant jack knife? As in, design the towing mechanism with something to prevent it twisting past a certain degree of movement. Is there some practical reason I'm missing why someone hasn't designed this already? Surely the only time you want an acute angle between the tractor and trailer is when manoeuvring, which would only be at slow speed.

 

[Kaeo]

It's certainly possible, I think the issue is with how easily you would be able to swap between the two. Atm hitching is simple as reversing it in and connecting up the lines. Adding an extra bar or whatever to hold an angle is awkward. Also, even on roundabouts you're going sharp enough that in bad weather it's enough to jack knife you.

 

[Telecaster]

The front tyres on the work van are on the wear indicators, not to worry thought I as it's due a service and they will throw me two on then. So took it for a service this morning, 1 hour through the snow on crap tyres was fun, came to pick it up - "Yeah, tyres are just legal mate so we've left them on, our tyre supplier hasn't got them anyway" - FFS.

To top it off they left it parked outside the garage all morning with the lights on and it was completely flat, took two jump packs to get it going. So still no tyres and more days of snow, awesome.

 

[VincentHanna]

Question for you...there's been a few incidents I've heard of in this weather involving artics jack knifing. Happened at a busy roundabout near my house on Tuesday, and it brought the entire area to a standstill for hours.

Is it not possible to design artics so that they cant jack knife? As in, design the towing mechanism with something to prevent it twisting past a certain degree of movement. Is there some practical reason I'm missing why someone hasn't designed this already? Surely the only time you want an acute angle between the tractor and trailer is when manoeuvring, which would only be at slow speed.

Elon Musk seems to think the electric truck they are making won't be able to jackknife...

 

[sandys]

Doubt there is much you can do, its just physics, all the weight in the rear when it goes off angle its going to want to take the front, there are lots of wheels with some software and independent braking they could mitigate somewhat but there would have to be some grip for it to work.

 

[Scania]

Where I work they're double stupid. They put winter tyres on the front, then use cheap remoulds on the driven wheels. Mental. Also utterly useless in any bad weather.

Not so bad for me as I drive a rigid, but for you guys it's pretty bad, especially trying to turn.

That's nuts, the winter tyres should be on the drive wheels end of story.
The problem for artics comes when the drive wheels can't grip and the trailer starts pushing the tractor out of the way, hence jack-knifes being common in slippery conditions.

Question for you...there's been a few incidents I've heard of in this weather involving artics jack knifing. Happened at a busy roundabout near my house on Tuesday, and it brought the entire area to a standstill for hours.

Is it not possible to design artics so that they cant jack knife? As in, design the towing mechanism with something to prevent it twisting past a certain degree of movement. Is there some practical reason I'm missing why someone hasn't designed this already? Surely the only time you want an acute angle between the tractor and trailer is when manoeuvring, which would only be at slow speed.

Down to physics I guess, I don't know the exact answer unfortunately - if I did, I'd be sat smoking a nice Cuban rather than sat in a truck! - it would be one hell of a stabaliser bar that could stop 35+tons pushing 8 tons out of the way which is a jack-knife situation in a nutshell, winter tyres on the tractor would certainly help though by increasing its available grip, I struggled to turn this morning yet Herr German driver had no apparent issues due to those lovely snow flake* symbols I spotted on his tyres (with great envy!)

Elon Musk seems to think the electric truck they are making won't be able to jackknife...

What Mr Musk thinks, and what he achieves remains to be seen, I doubt the method of providing power is going to drastically change the physics of a tractor unit (the bit at the front of an articulated truck) weighing ~ 8.5 tons being influenced by - i.e. pushed into a jack knife situation - by the combined weight of a trailer and its load - anything up to 35.5tons combined - as ol' Scotty says on Star Trek, "I cannot change the laws of physics", remember, to tow a caravan for example, the pulling car must be heavier than the caravan, with an articulated truck, this is reversed, the trailer and its payload is massively heavier than the tractor unit, by definition, the tail can/will wag the dog in this scenario.

Towing limits
The weight relationship between tow car and caravan is important for safe towing. To avoid the ‘tail (caravan) wagging the dog (car)’, it is important that the tow car is as heavy as posible. If it’s not, the tow car is unlikely to be able to control a caravan should it become unstable when impacted by external forces such as a cross wind, heavy cornering or driving with too high speeds.

The 85% Rule
The '85% rule' is not legislated, but a recommendation that states that the weight of the loaded caravan should be no more than 85% of the cars kerbweight. Those who are experienced caravanners may go up to 100% of the cars kerbweight, but no-one should tow a caravan that is heavier than the towing limit of the car.

https://towcar.info/GB/towing.php

When you consider how much of a no-no it is for a caravan to exceed the weight of the towing car, you start to see why articulated trucks are so prone to jack-knife situations, especially when there is snow on the ground and traction is minimal.

* Mods - why the hell is "snow flake" as one word censored on this forum? Really!?!

 

[Nasher]

A colleague had a very near miss with a truck this morning while it was turning in to a T junction he was waiting at. The back just sort of drifted towards him

 

[theone8181]

That's nuts, the winter tyres should be on the drive wheels end of story.
The problem for artics comes when the drive wheels can't grip and the trailer starts pushing the tractor out of the way, hence jack-knifes being common in slippery conditions.



Down to physics I guess, I don't know the exact answer unfortunately - if I did, I'd be sat smoking a nice Cuban rather than sat in a truck! - it would be one hell of a stabaliser bar that could stop 35+tons pushing 8 tons out of the way which is a jack-knife situation in a nutshell, winter tyres on the tractor would certainly help though by increasing its available grip, I struggled to turn this morning yet Herr German driver had no apparent issues due to those lovely snow flake* symbols I spotted on his tyres (with great envy!)


What Mr Musk thinks, and what he achieves remains to be seen, I doubt the method of providing power is going to drastically change the physics of a tractor unit (the bit at the front of an articulated truck) weighing ~ 8.5 tons being influenced by - i.e. pushed into a jack knife situation - by the combined weight of a trailer and its load - anything up to 35.5tons combined - as ol' Scotty says on Star Trek, "I cannot change the laws of physics", remember, to tow a caravan for example, the pulling car must be heavier than the caravan, with an articulated truck, this is reversed, the trailer and its payload is massively heavier than the tractor unit, by definition, the tail can/will wag the dog in this scenario.


https://towcar.info/GB/towing.php

When you consider how much of a no-no it is for a caravan to exceed the weight of the towing car, you start to see why articulated trucks are so prone to jack-knife situations, especially when there is snow on the ground and traction is minimal.

* Mods - why the hell is "snow flake" as one word censored on this forum? Really!?!

Maybe hes thinking that if the trailer had motors on each wheel, they might act like a crude form of traction control?

 

[Scania]

Maybe hes thinking that if the trailer had motors on each wheel, they might act like a crude form of traction control?

Maybe, I’ve not looked into it that much - tbh I’m more than a bit doubtful about his taking on the truck manufacturers given he’s struggling to produce cars and seems more than a bit sidelined by space ambitions.....

The thing with motors for each wheel on the trailer - and by definition, batteries for said motors - is weight, the tractor is already expected to be heavier than a conventional unit and a heavier trailer as well is going to reduce the trucks payload even more, given a trucks primarily job is pulling a payload, one with reduced capacity to do so is not going to appeal to hauliers.

 

[Drollic]

My s2000 is interesting in the snow without them

 

[Kei]

My car has winter rated michelin cross climates fitted all round and I didn't even bother to try to move my car simply because of everyone else on the road with their "essential journeys" who are simply ill prepared for the conditions, causing gridlock, accidents and generally making things more risky than they should be.

 

[MichaelAwkward]

I managed to get to and from work both yesterday and today without any real incident in my 270bhp RWD card on P Zeros/P7s. The main roads in Abingdon were fine and had been clearly snow plowed and gritted, but everything to the west of the A34 hasn't and much of my route was down to single file traffic where snow had blown from the surrounding fields. In fact the only trouble I had was on the road from my flat to the nearest main road (about 500 yards or so), with snow piling up in odd places making mounds due to the wind. Turned the ESP off and gave it a bit of extra power, no problem.

I'd say 75% of it is down to the driver and their abilities, not the car or the tyres they have. I've seen people driving Range Rovers, HGVs, buses far too quickly (at basically normal speeds) over the past couple of days, and more than a fair few cars in verges and ditches because people aren't good at matching their driving to the road conditions, even in normal weather.

 

[shauncr91]

Just checking in, still not dead after 2 days of driving an artic on regular tyres and my car on AD08R's and living on a hill in a relatively remote area of Sheffield

 

[Nasher]

Almost got stuck this morning even on winters, drove off the driveway and immediately had issues. Managed to keep going but only just made it to the main road. If it's like this on Monday I don't think I'll be going to work

 

[Lunatic Dreyfus]

My knackered old TT (fitted with PS3's/4's) earned a grudging tap on the roof after excelling on the roads around Leighton Buzzard after the council couldn't be bothered to treat/plough/close certain popular roads out of town early this morning.

The 10 mile journey took an hour and I was a bit 'wired' after to getting to work. Easily the worst road conditions I've ever driven.

 

[[TW]Fox]

the council couldn't be bothered

I'm willing to bet this isn't true.

 

[Telecaster]

It seems my wear-indicator spec Contis are still better than a work colleagues ditch finders with plenty of tread left. I had to get out and push him to get him going outside his house, then got back in mine and just set off as normal :/

 

[Lunatic Dreyfus]

I'm willing to bet this isn't true.

They hadn't done it seven hours later when I came back the same way. One good pass with a plough was all that was needed to get rid of the snow drifts. I wouldn't have minded if it wasn't a link between two towns.

I was in 'angry letter writing' mood when I got home, now I'm just wondering how tomorrow's early morning commute is going to pan out.

 

[[TW]Fox]

They hadn't done it seven hours later when I came back the same way. One good pass with a plough was all that was needed to get rid of the snow drifts. I wouldn't have minded if it wasn't a link between two towns.

I'm sure there was a reason other than 'they couldn't be bothered' though.

 

[Nasher]

Our council seem to have gritted the first couple of miles of a road and then I guess health and safety told them to go home because of the snow...