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Dubious Research Discovers Ryzen vulnerabilites

Soldato
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Soldato
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It seemed Ryzen vulnerabilities discovered by CTS Labs are not scam.

Mark Papermaster, Senior Vice President and Chief Technology Officer posted Initial AMD Technical Assessment of CTS Labs Research blog, Masterkey, Ryzenfall, Fallout, and Chimera security vulnerabilities will be fix through BIOS firmware update. AMD PSP issues will be fix with PSP firmware update soon.

https://community.amd.com/community...amd-technical-assessment-of-cts-labs-research
Just because there is some truth to the vulnerabilities doesn't mean it isn't a scam. As I said on probably the first page of this thread, they'll all be fixed with an AGESA/BIOS update and that'll be that, with no performance loss.
 
Man of Honour
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Just because there is some truth to the vulnerabilities doesn't mean it isn't a scam. As I said on probably the first page of this thread, they'll all be fixed with an AGESA/BIOS update and that'll be that, with no performance loss.

Agreed - but those trying to write them off as just a scam are wrong as well.

This has been one of the weirdest disclosures I've ever seen. I certainly don't think it fits any one explanation I've seen so far.

AMD PSP issues will be fix with PSP firmware update soon.

I thought someone was trying to claim earlier you couldn't update the PSP firmware earlier? ;)

Shame they didn't put out at least a framework of that update earlier - bet let than never though.

Looks like a much smaller bit of the vulnerability is actually useable as persistent across reboots than originally made out by CTS Labs.
 
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https://www.anandtech.com/show/12556/amd-confirms-exploits-patched-in-weeks

AMD Confirms CTS-Labs Exploits: All To Be Patched In Weeks

If you have been following our coverage regarding the recent security issues found in AMD’s processors and chipsets by security research firm CTS-Labs, it has been a bit of a doozy. Today AMD is posting on their website, in the form of a blog post, the results from their initial analysis, despite CTS-Labs only giving them 1-day notice, rather than the industry standard 60/90-days, as they felt that these were too important and expected AMD to fix them in a much longer timescale. Despite this attitude, AMD’s blog post dictates that all the issues found can be patched and mitigated in the next few weeks without any performance degradation.

The salient high-level takeaway from AMD is this:

  1. All the issues can be confirmed on related AMD hardware, but require Admin Access at the metal
  2. All the issues are set to be fixed within weeks, not months, through firmware patches and BIOS updates
  3. No performance impact expected
  4. None of these issues are Zen-specific, but relate to the PSP and ASMedia chipsets.
  5. These are not related to the GPZ exploits earlier this year.
AMD’s official statement is as follows:

Initial AMD Technical Assessment of CTS Labs Research
On March 12, 2018, AMD received a communication from CTS Labs regarding research into security vulnerabilities involving some AMD products. Less than 24 hours later, the research firm went public with its findings. Security and protecting users’ data is of the utmost importance to us at AMD and we have worked rapidly to assess this security research and develop mitigation plans where needed. This is our first public update on this research, and will cover both our technical assessment of the issues as well as planned mitigation actions.

The security issues identified by the third-party researchers are not related to the AMD “Zen” CPU architecture or the Google Project Zero exploits made public Jan. 3, 2018. Instead, these issues are associated with the firmware managing the embedded security control processor in some of our products (AMD Secure Processor) and the chipset used in some socket AM4 and socket TR4 desktop platforms supporting AMD processors.

As described in more detail below, AMD has rapidly completed its assessment and is in the process of developing and staging the deployment of mitigations. It’s important to note that all the issues raised in the research require administrative access to the system, a type of access that effectively grants the user unrestricted access to the system and the right to delete, create or modify any of the folders or files on the computer, as well as change any settings. Any attacker gaining unauthorized administrative access would have a wide range of attacks at their disposal well beyond the exploits identified in this research. Further, all modern operating systems and enterprise-quality hypervisors today have many effective security controls, such as Microsoft Windows Credential Guard in the Windows environment, in place to prevent unauthorized administrative access that would need to be overcome in order to affect these security issues. A useful clarification of the difficulties associated with successfully exploiting these issues can be found in this posting from Trail of Bits, an independent security research firm who were contracted by the third-party researchers to verify their findings.

Mark Papermaster,
Senior Vice President and Chief Technology Officer


This is followed by a table describing the issues, stating that each issue can be solved by BIOS/firmware updates in the coming weeks. AMD is also set to provide additional updates on the analysis of the issues and mitigation plans over that time. AMD is also prominent about addressing the security issues only, over any others that might have been discussed.

Source: AMD

So basically if the industry standard 90 days had been given,this would have been sorted well within that period.LOL.
 
Soldato
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CTS Labs, a throwaway company to do someone else's dirty work.

Absolutely wouldn't turn me off of using AMD CPUs, but this sort of BS media can't help them.

If you see the detailed AMD table of the issue, all the "vulnerabilities" require physical administrator access to the machine, some of them to the bios!!
And couple go even further. It require direct hardware access....

When you want to do something bad to the machine, having already administrator access to it, you dont faffle around trying to bother with CPU internals or the firmware, you do your job......
 
Man of Honour
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If you see the detailed AMD table of the issue, all the "vulnerabilities" require physical administrator access to the machine, some of them to the bios!!
And couple go even further. It require direct hardware access....

When you want to do something bad to the machine, having already administrator access to it, you dont faffle around trying to bother with CPU internals or the firmware, you do your job......

Not physical - all require elevated privileges but that can be done remotely in combination with another exploit.

Having admin access isn't always enough - in a reasonably secure network for instance the vast bulk of software rootkits and the like are unlikely to be able to evade security protocols and have any chance of staying persistent to say sniff the credentials of someone later logging in with higher network privileges, etc. allowing elevation of access to company data and the likes - these issues ostensibly allow that though it seems require a level of resources you won't see from your average hacking group.
 
Soldato
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Not physical - all require elevated privileges but that can be done remotely in combination with another exploit.

Having admin access isn't always enough - in a reasonably secure network for instance the vast bulk of software rootkits and the like are unlikely to be able to evade security protocols and have any chance of staying persistent to say sniff the credentials of someone later logging in with higher network privileges, etc. allowing elevation of access to company data and the likes - these issues ostensibly allow that though it seems require a level of resources you won't see from your average hacking group.


Did you fully read AMD's response with the attached table or not?
 
Man of Honour
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Did you fully read AMD's response with the attached table or not?

In what respect?

To reiterate NONE of these issues requires physical access - conceptually they are possible to deploy via another exploit such as the ability to compromise memory via Firefox I mentioned a few pages back.

On domain linked systems just having local admin doesn't give you the ability to do everything you want - normally network security policies hardware and software will at some point sanitise and/or lock down the PC and/or discover malware in security audits - although AMD has significantly reduced the scope of these exploits to achieve persistence it is still possible and these exploits have a far higher chance of evading normal security audits and work around other security features than your typical second stage malware.

Think of this bigger than your average home user environment where these are of far smaller impact as you can far easily be "owned" by the average rootkit.
 
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Soldato
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Agreed - but those trying to write them off as just a scam are wrong as well.

This has been one of the weirdest disclosures I've ever seen. I certainly don't think it fits any one explanation I've seen so far.



I thought someone was trying to claim earlier you couldn't update the PSP firmware earlier? ;)

Shame they didn't put out at least a framework of that update earlier - bet let than never though.

Looks like a much smaller bit of the vulnerability is actually useable as persistent across reboots than originally made out by CTS Labs.

What you mean better late than never? It has been just over a week for them to respond properly. What are you expecting. To suggest that giving AMD 24 hours before going public is nuts. There is a reason for the 90 days and it should be adhered too.

Not to mention it isn't even directly AMD Zen issues but the PSP and ASMedia chipsets. You live in la la land if you think they could have honestly reacted faster. It takes time to confirm and update and give a response.
 
Man of Honour
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What you mean better late than never? It has been just over a week for them to respond properly. What are you expecting. To suggest that giving AMD 24 hours before going public is nuts. There is a reason for the 90 days and it should be adhered too.

Not to mention it isn't even directly AMD Zen issues but the PSP and ASMedia chipsets. You live in la la land if you think they could have honestly reacted faster. It takes time to confirm and update and give a response.

To be fair you could be waiting months for a similar statement from some companies - but given how quickly AMD like to talk (smack/big up) when they have nothing to say I hold them to higher standards when they should be saying things - they could have had a framework of this kind of statement out very quickly even if they couldn't fully populate the details, with more of a customer advisory, etc. rather than leaving it to 3rd party sites.

A company like AMD is going to be hit from time to time by issues such as this - they should have a department setup for the "boom" ( https://www-935.ibm.com/services/us/gbs/thoughtleadership/beyondboom/ ) hitting the ground running with mitigations especially in terms of PR and customer advistories - there is no real excuse to have anything else in this day and age - all they released at first was a muted response to the investor channel - not even their main news channel.

These issues are related to Zen they kind of underplay it in the statement - while the root of the vulnerability sits inside 3rd party systems there are specifics to the Zen platform that facilitate being able to get access to and then actually do something useful with those vulnerabilities - even though that can be resolved by patching those systems and/or getting 3rd parties to fix their ****.
 
Soldato
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To be fair you could be waiting months for a similar statement from some companies - but given how quickly AMD like to talk (smack/big up) when they have nothing to say I hold them to higher standards when they should be saying things - they could have had a framework of this kind of statement out very quickly even if they couldn't fully populate the details, with more of a customer advisory, etc. rather than leaving it to 3rd party sites.

A company like AMD is going to be hit from time to time by issues such as this - they should have a department setup for the "boom" ( https://www-935.ibm.com/services/us/gbs/thoughtleadership/beyondboom/ ) hitting the ground running with mitigations especially in terms of PR and customer advistories - there is no real excuse to have anything else in this day and age - all they released at first was a muted response to the investor channel - not even their main news channel.

These issues are related to Zen they kind of underplay it in the statement - while the root of the vulnerability sits inside 3rd party systems there are specifics to the Zen platform that facilitate being able to get access to and then actually do something useful with those vulnerabilities - even though that can be resolved by patching those systems and/or getting 3rd parties to fix their ****.

Sorry but the 90 days simple to follow and a reason for it accordingly. No company puts out a response to something they cannot verify properly in terms of security. You are asking for something that honestly isn't reasonable in the slightest. And yes I understand why AMD stated it is not their product directly because it is a 3rd party system by your own admission. It isn't downplaying, if you consider facts to be that then that is on you.

The document like the Boom you are on about shouldn't be needed because the documents should never go public in the 90 day period whilst they can spend 3 months to review and respond accordingly. They responded exactly as they should.

Anything else is on you and honestly your view to hold them to a higher standard well cause you do (is basically what you stated) is also on you. It is still stupid to expect them to have a full update and response in what ever arbitrary time frame you want it to be. 7 working days is extremely fast considering the situation.
 
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I am more than prepared to accept ANY platform has security flaws if you dig deep enough. This whole thing has just been a poop show. I don't even mind the whole advertising thing tbh... Hell why not!

Just the bizarreness of it all, and such loose "stretching for something, anything" flaws was just dumb and extremely suspicious.
No platform has any real security left, if attacker already has admin access.

Just like every single car in the world has faulty locks:
Give me the keys and I can steal every single one of them!


This has extremely strong smell of clearly planned attack on AMD/scam.
Question is only where it goes/who are behind it.
I mean "security researchers" who couldn't think far enough that making this big number from minor/tiny vulnerabilities doesn't lead them getting shred apart by any semi-competent IT journalist aren't exactly good candidates for finding these flaws.

Israel can be certainly considered as pro-Intel country, with interest in keeping Intel dominating AMD...
Wall Street? Full of white collar criminals about as beneficial for mankind as cancer.
Intel got clearly badly surprised by Zen architecture completely disrupting their milking of customers with rebranding of same old.
Neither is Yakuza-Jen's Nvidia afraid to use illegal means to stiffle competition's chances...
And making noise elsewhere is one of the all time favorite tactics of covering more important "shady businesses".
 
Man of Honour
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No platform has any real security left, if attacker already has admin access.

Not entirely true - gaining admin access to the OS does not necessarily allow you to work around hardware mitigations against exploitation - due to the Zen architecture that was made possible.

On other systems using those same controllers you very well might actually need physical access to the machine to be able to exploit that 3rd party hardware.
 
Associate
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That was a quick fix so it must have been quite easy to resolve?
Considering that these are secondary attacks I wouldn't apply the fix until they have been tested for longer.
No point in taking a risk on introducing a bug as they are not critical.
Not suggesting that AMD haven't done a solid job but this was a quick release.

There's been speculation that Intel systems using ASMedia secondary chipsets have the same problem so any news on whether they require updates?
In the current climate I doubt that Intel and their motherboards partners would ignore a security risk.
 
Soldato
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No platform has any real security left, if attacker already has admin access.

Just like every single car in the world has faulty locks:
Give me the keys and I can steal every single one of them!


This has extremely strong smell of clearly planned attack on AMD/scam.
Question is only where it goes/who are behind it.
I mean "security researchers" who couldn't think far enough that making this big number from minor/tiny vulnerabilities doesn't lead them getting shred apart by any semi-competent IT journalist aren't exactly good candidates for finding these flaws.

Israel can be certainly considered as pro-Intel country, with interest in keeping Intel dominating AMD...
Wall Street? Full of white collar criminals about as beneficial for mankind as cancer.
Intel got clearly badly surprised by Zen architecture completely disrupting their milking of customers with rebranding of same old.
Neither is Yakuza-Jen's Nvidia afraid to use illegal means to stiffle competition's chances...
And making noise elsewhere is one of the all time favorite tactics of covering more important "shady businesses".

Perform a really difficult and convoluted attack to gain access and use said attack to then expose a trivial hardware level flaw in a chipset. Makes total sense... As Vince said, you might as well just break in and swap systems for pre compromised ones.

No way this has come from Intel. Intel and AMD are making money together and have a pretty strong partnership.
 
Man of Honour
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There's been speculation that Intel systems using ASMedia secondary chipsets have the same problem so any news on whether they require updates?

This is a bit of a misunderstanding but something that shouldn't be ignored either.

These 3rd party modules have issues but just having them on a system isn't enough to actually enable access to them, then exploit them and then once exploited do something useful with them. AMD Promontory satisfied all 3 parts of that equation relatively easily, other platforms typically do not but that isn't to say that new ways won't be found in the future and/or some implementations are also vulnerable.

Also some similar issues were discovered and fixed on Intel in the past. Bare in mind these have been used on other systems going back years and years so if they were as vulnerable as with Zen its highly unlikely they'd have survived this long without being exposed.

For instance with the ASMedia controllers it has been known about for awhile that some possibilities were there - hence makes it likely that a new security company would use them as a target for testing their tools and procedures.
 
Man of Honour
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No, this nonsense should be ignored now.

Read the rest of my post.

I'm saying that the potential threat to other platforms shouldn't be ignored even though as it stands the implementation elsewhere doesn't expose the vulnerabilities in 3rd party modules so (relatively speaking) readily.

Perform a really difficult and convoluted attack to gain access and use said attack to then expose a trivial hardware level flaw in a chipset. Makes total sense

While trivial in the case of a home user - there are scenarios where these "trivial" flaws are anything but so - the problem is you need significant resources such as a state sponsored group with a big target where the pay off is worth it such as stealing trade secrets, big finance, military etc.

People need to stop looking at them in such a narrow context of "how they affect me at home".
 
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