Section 75 Claims - New Cars

[deaglecat]

..

 

[kaktus]

Thank you everyone for your contributions and help, especially @Housey.

Just an update - I have been in touch with the Dealer Principal of the Selling Dealership. He is considering to replace my car with a different used car. I get that my vehicle is technically used now but I specified it, selected it, bought it and took care of it. Why should I have to settle for someone else's used car and be the second owner after all of this? Surely if it is a replacement, should it not be replaced for a new vehicle or am i being unreasonable?

I said at the end of my mail that I would happily consider a replacement vehicle so firstly I will look to see if a newer and less mileage car of the same model is available.

Talk on Monday, have a good weekend and I am really sorry for the undoubtedly stressful experience

Mike

Mike,


Happy to do this by email if you prefer that route - I was trying to avoid bombarding you with lengthy emails describing the events of the timeline in detail. Usually a few minutes by phone can help to clear up these kind of situations. I will try to make this as simple as possible to follow:


Your aftersales manager was on the receiving end of a frustrated customer who had attempted to reach the Dealer Principal multiple times. Infact, I was under the impression that you were going to call me last Monday and obviously this didn't happen and it is clear from your email below you had no knowledge of this request which means once again, the message failed to reach you through your staff. Prior to this, your staff at Bolton and Blackburn branches have conveyed to me the following at various points in time: 1) there is no Dealer Principal of ****. 2) Dealer Principal does not get involved in issues like this 3) Don't know who Dealer Principal is 4) Salesman who sold the car left the company (as if this is relevant in any way) 5) I should "flog the car to Evans Halshaw". These are some of the responses I have had while attempting to communicate with your staff about this issue. I am sorry if your After Sales Manager felt I was speaking in an excitable manner by the point I had contacted him however as I explained to him by phone, I had gone through all of the above and just wanted to reach the Dealer Principal.


The Timeline

Car was delivered to my home 6th June 2017. That day was torrential rainfall in London and by the time the car was delivered it was too dark to inspect. The following morning the car was inspected and driven. Please refer to the attached email for the communication between myself and Martyn. Martyn advised me by writing that the car "needed to be looked at by a local dealer" on 7th June 2017 at 4:51pm. I called Martyn to query this and was told there was no need to send the car back to **** as these are items that can be rectified under Citroen Warranty. Phil's comment about the £360 is confusing the delivery cost of returning the vehicle back to Bolton and the cost of paint repairs for the issues Martyn missed during PDI which he told me were estimated at £2,000 at the time by Citroen Chiswick. Martyn had pleaded with me to allow him to resolve just the door handle (completely different colour to the rest of the body), the tailgate paint defects and the headlight area paint defects at a cost of some £500. He said if he had to cover the remainder it would surely "come out of his pocket". I had a good relationship with Martyn and did not want him to incur any issues with his employer and so I agreed but insisted that the mechanical issues needed to be rectified or the car would be returned. His response was clear: the mechanical work is warrantable and can be rectified by any Citroen - I had no reason to doubt this. Martyn was privy to and responded to at least 6 emails between 4th September and 6th September 2017 with Citroen Edgware discussing the scope of work involved and who would cover the bill so **** was aware of these issues from the beginning and had signed off on at least some portion of payment towards rectifying them. I am sorry if this information did not find its way back to you but it is clear evidence that I was in communication with and received instructions from **** as a business with which direction to take to rectify the problems.


Following the completion of the paint defect work Martyn was again contacted in September 2017 and October 2017 by phone to request assistance with the ongoing mechanical issues. His response was that as these were warrantable issues it was not needed for **** to be involved. I queried this with Citroen Customer Care as well following my conversations with Martyn and again was advised in writing that since this was a warrantable issue the car would "not go back and forth between **** and London and would be dealt with by Citroen Edgware". Please see attached email communication from Citroen Customer Care dated 6th September 2017.


It is at this point that communication with **** ceased on the mechanical issues as I was instructed now by both Martyn and Citroen Customer Care to do so. At no point until Mr Piotr Daniel's email on 4th January 2019 was I informed that **** is ultimately responsible for the return and refund of the vehicle otherwise I would have of course been back in touch with your group much sooner. Infact you can see from my email to Richard Jennings, Robert McKenzie and Karl Howkins in November 2018 that I had mistakenly expected a refund from Citroen Edgware following this absurd situation and Richard Jennings followed up with a reference to Citroen insisting on diagnosing the issue before a refund would be contemplated. Again, no mention whatsoever of ****. I was advised by, and under the mistaken impression, that Citroen Edgware were the responsible party for the issue and if the issue could not be dealt with then by some means Citroen would step in and issue a replacement vehicle or refund.


In the ensuing 18 months the car had been in and out of the workshop more than 20 times at Citroen Edgware to try to resolve the suspension issues and other issues including faulty air conditioning, dead speakers, gear shuddering, condensation in the touchscreen etc. The problem with the suspension became so much of an issue to identify that Citroen Edgware's three master technicians were driving the vehicle back and forth between the workshop and their home for weeks to try to figure it out I'm told. All in all, the car has spent a combined approximately 5-6 months in the workshop out of my possession.


Following Piotr Daniel's email on the 4th of January copying in Karl Howkins, Citroen Customer Care and Citroen Edgware's dealer principal advising that Citroen Edgware confirms it has done all it can to try to resolve the issue and that a refund would need to be processed with the Selling Dealership, is the point at which I was then forced to get back in touch with **** to resolve this


I hope that this summarises the timeline of events for you. I noted at the end of your email you mentioned that you are now preparing an automatic loan vehicle while my vehicle is brought into your workshop for more repair work. I am afraid that this is not an acceptable solution for me Mike. I have absolutely no reason to believe that another repair attempt will rectify anything particularly when I have had official communication from Citroen Edgware that this problem is a 'design issue'. I believe if the problem were going to be resolved it would have been by now with the sheer amount of repair attempts and parts replaced including a full rebuild of the suspension system. I am sure your technicians are competent but I have no reason to believe they are any more competent than three master technicians employed by Citroen Edgware. I have every reason to believe that this attempt will fail as the dozens of prior attempts have and will do nothing other than to drag out an already ridiculously long, ardous process.


At this point the only two solutions I can accept are a replacement vehicle or a refund of the price I have paid for a car I have had little opportunity to use. Ultimately, I understand your position but you should also try to understand mine. I did not start by demanding a refund for the vehicle. I have patiently waited, followed the procedure as laid out to me by a representative of your business and by Citroen and gave far more than a reasonable opportunity to have my car fixed. I cannot allow this to continue any longer than it already has and I am quite certain if our positions were reversed you would not either.

The first time I heard of you was when my Isle of Man used car operation’s sales manager advised you had been in an excitable manner on the phone advising him that someone at Blackburn, from where you bought the car, had replied to your request to speak to Martin Williams was “I’ve never heard of him” which could have been better explained as “ he must have left before I joined sorry but he is no longer here. Can I help you?”

Phil has now told me that you when you advised Martin that you were having a problem he said “ it will cost £300 to recover your car and I might lose my job”. Is that correct?

I will get him to explain that bizarre reply as I am not a tyrant and I fight to protect my good name and high volume of repeat business, by getting personally involved where staff need my help.

Is that the only communication you had with my company ,since purchase , up to this week please?

I do find the phone is not the best way to communicate , lots of opportunity for hasty reactions that don’t alleviate the pain.

I am preparing to exchange your car for an automatic loan car and get yours into my workshop.

As the supplier your contract is with us and I will ,once we have solved the problem and you have confirmed you are happy with the car , send you a sorry for the inconvenience gesture.

Hope this brings me up to date,

Regards,

Mike.

Mike,

I appreciate that this frustrating for both of us - I think from your note below it is now clear that there is a disconnect in communication and that you are not aware of the history of the issue leading up to this point. The trail began with and included ****. I explained the background to Phil on Wednesday and I assumed he would have briefed you on the details but it appears that hasn't happened. I think the most sensible thing to do at this stage is for you and I to have 10 minutes on the phone together to explain the issue from the beginning and give you the complete picture. I am available over the weekend or Monday, let me know what works for you.

I am sorry,

Notifying me of the issue for the first time this week ,I am not being pressurized into a fix today.

If you feel you must proceed against us immediately I cannot stop you but would suggest you check with your solicitor that my reaction would be deemed reasonable and I would be given time to resolve it.

Laurence has been away with his sisters and I have not heard back that he is even in the country.

You frustration is not due to any action of **** and having covered 9,000 miles and owned the vehicle for the length of time you have, I will certainly not be giving you your money back today.

An alternate vehicle I would consider given time to inspect the car.

Regards,

Mike

Good afternoon Mike

Thank you for your note. I am of course open to a sensible and simple solution for all parties involved and believe there is no need for unnecessary friction. However as I am sure you can understand after 18 months of dealing with this issue on a brand new vehicle my patience is entirely exhausted with Citroen and its dealers. As I explained to Phil on Wednesday, we need a resolution to this by close of business today as I am not prepared to allow this to drag on any longer.


Laurence, please call me whenever you would like. I am available to speak now or any time this weekend.

Kind Regards,

Good afternoon

I started *** cars in 1980 and own it.

The problem with the car you purchased from me concerns me obviously and you are clearly very frustrated with your local dealer who have been unable to rectify it.

We have sold hundreds of “cacti”

and never had this raised before so I feel it’s particular to your car.

My son Laurence is not in the car business ( sensible chap!) but lives in London.

He could help , may he contact you so we can quickly go down a mutually simple route to getting this sorted?

Best regards, Mike.

 

[kindai]

Why should I have to settle for someone else's used car and be the second owner after all of this? Surely if it is a replacement, should it not be replaced for a new vehicle or am i being unreasonable?

His point "I will look to see if a newer and less mileage car of the same model is available." I think is extremely reasonable of him, id take him on that offer, even if its not to your personal spec. Owners, dont care.

 

[kaktus]

His point "I will look to see if a newer and less mileage car of the same model is available." I think is extremely reasonable of him, id take him on that offer, even if its not to your personal spec. Owners, dont care.

Oh I don't think he had a choice there. I have one of handful of Cactus EAT6 platinum grey models in the country (the colour and gearbox were introduced about 3 months before the car was phased out entirely and replaced with the new cactus in Dec 2017). So I think it would be really hard if not impossible to get an exact replacement.

 

[Housey]

Glad it seems to be heading in the right direction and glad you followed my suggested approach, which seems to be working well for you.

DP seems reasonable and pragmatic, a good starting point and gut feel, he will look after you.

 

[Housey]

Sorry, quoted wrongly. As you were men.

 

[kaktus]

Glad it seems to be heading in the right direction and glad you followed my suggested approach, which seems to be working well for you.

Thanks Housey, your advice has been excellent so far. Genuinely appreciated. Let's see what he comes back with as I am still not convinced I shouldn't just be pressing for a refund or insisting on replacement for a new vehicle. Maybe he offers something I can at least sell for more than I would've got for mine.

DP seems reasonable and pragmatic, a good starting point and gut feel, he will look after you.

He sent a sarcastic email with a screenshot of his name and email address posted on his website (to be fair a bit obscure but it is there) and saying :
"how much easier than this do you want it to be?" after my last lengthy email to him. I was about to write "ok mike, I've tried to be nice about this but if your approach is to respond with sarcasm and an attempt to belittle then down the route of S75 we go". His follow-up email about the replacement car came in 0.1 seconds before I was about to hit Send

 

[muon]

Unfortunately from his side you can see that realistically you should have been dealing with them the entire time. You need to give them time to work out a solution.

As he states your contract is with them and so you may have trouble with a S75 without giving them a chance.

 

[Housey]

Thanks Housey....cut
His follow-up email about the replacement car came in 0.1 seconds before I was about to hit Send

The last discussion is always the important one, that sets the tone, the ones before are just getting to the last one. Speak to him Monday, get him onside and get it sorted.

 

[Housey]

Unfortunately from his side you can see that realistically you should have been dealing with them the entire time. You need to give them time to work out a solution.

As he states your contract is with them and so you may have trouble with a S75 without giving them a chance.

As a general point for future reference, when it involves anything like this the selling dealer is the first point of call. Give them the chance (no more than 2-3 goes) and then if needs be bring the DP into the discussion. When I had issues with my R8 I took it to another dealer even though it was part of the same group. They were not happy to work on the car as they knew I was considering rejecting the car (I told them) and had been down the route with my RS4, which they sold me. My thinking was 2nd pair of eyes looking at the issue, but the Service Manager didn't want to get involved. It was at that point I put it to group level and Audi CEO office in Milton Keynes and few days later, fixed.

 

[muon]

As a general point for future reference, when it involves anything like this the selling dealer is the first point of call. Give them the chance (no more than 2-3 goes) and then if needs be bring the DP into the discussion. When I had issues with my R8 I took it to another dealer even though it was part of the same group. They were not happy to work on the car as they knew I was considering rejecting the car (I told them) and had been down the route with my RS4, which they sold me. My thinking was 2nd pair of eyes looking at the issue, but the Service Manager didn't want to get involved. It was at that point I put it to group level and Audi CEO office in Milton Keynes and few days later, fixed.

Ultimately all civil law is backed by the threat of courts. The question is if the OP goes in front of a judge today to claim compensation (which as you've said previously would only be the market value), how well would that judge take to the defendant (the selling dealer) not being given a reasonable chance to solve the complaint.

I have experienced independent dealers being taken to small claims court and it's not easy even when the dealer is completely in the wrong.

 

[kaktus]

As a general point for future reference, when it involves anything like this the selling dealer is the first point of call. Give them the chance (no more than 2-3 goes) and then if needs be bring the DP into the discussion. When I had issues with my R8 I took it to another dealer even though it was part of the same group. They were not happy to work on the car as they knew I was considering rejecting the car (I told them) and had been down the route with my RS4, which they sold me. My thinking was 2nd pair of eyes looking at the issue, but the Service Manager didn't want to get involved. It was at that point I put it to group level and Audi CEO office in Milton Keynes and few days later, fixed.

I can see that now but realistically how would that work when the selling dealership is 210 miles away? imagine it has to go back and forth 2-3 times, let alone 20-25 times as it did with Citroen Edgware. Delivery each way is £360. How would you manage the logistics of that? They certainly wouldn't pay to have the car brought back and forth each time no?

 

[muon]

I can see that now but realistically how would that work when the selling dealership is 300 miles away? imagine it has to go back and forth 2-3 times, let alone 20-25 times as it did with Citroen Edgware. Delivery each way is £360. How would you manage the logistics of that? They certainly wouldn't pay to have the car brought back and forth each time no?

Did they deliver the car to you or did you collect?

It'd be nice of them to collect the car, but I don't believe they are obligated to do so.

It's like buying something from a particular store (say a wall clock from IKEA) and telling them to take the faulty goods from your house.

 

[kaktus]

Unfortunately from his side you can see that realistically you should have been dealing with them the entire time. You need to give them time to work out a solution.

As he states your contract is with them and so you may have trouble with a S75 without giving them a chance.

Yes I understand that but as I mentioned several times, his own representative and Citroen Customer Care both advised against that. So realistically or not, the customer was told not to do that. It can't then be he customer's fault that he or she has been dealing with the wrong party this whole time.

 

[kaktus]

d

Did they deliver the car to you or did you collect?

It'd be nice of them to collect the car, but I don't believe they are obligated to do so.

It's like buying something from a particular store and telling them to take the faulty goods from your house.

Delivered to me for £360. I think it's different when we are talking about consumer goods as they typically don't have this issue. i.e. I buy something from CPW I don't have to go back to that particular CPW to resolve the problem.

 

[muon]

Yes I understand that but as I mentioned several times, his own representative and Citroen Customer Care both advised against that. So realistically or not, the customer was told not to do that. It can't then be he customer's fault that he or she has been dealing with the wrong party this whole time.

That would be a strong argument. Whether it is definitive, I'm not so sure.

I think you even got from the emails, the DP was surprised at that comment.

edit:

I think you should ask for them to collect the car (for free) and to organise a courtesy car. You should also have a pre-agreed timeline whereby they either have the vehicle repaired or arrange a suitable swap. I think 4 weeks would be reasonable.

Then your S75 or court action would be much stronger.

If you win in court you will get what you paid minus the value in actual use that you got. This is likely to be higher than the market value if as you say you couldn't use the car a lot of the time (or at least didn't get the right utility from it).

 

[kaktus]

That would be a strong argument. Whether it is definitive, I'm not so sure.

I think you even got from the emails, the DP was surprised at that comment.

Car was delivered to my home 6th June 2017. That day was torrential rainfall in London and by the time the car was delivered it was too dark to inspect. The following morning the car was inspected and driven. Please refer to the attached email for the communication between myself and Martyn. Martyn advised me by writing that the car "needed to be looked at by a local dealer" on 7th June 2017 at 4:51pm. I called Martyn to query this and was told there was no need to send the car back to **** as these are items that can be rectified under Citroen Warranty.

 

[kaktus]

That would be a strong argument. Whether it is definitive, I'm not so sure.

I think you even got from the emails, the DP was surprised at that comment.

edit:

I think you should ask for them to collect the car (for free) and to organise a courtesy car. You should also have a pre-agreed timeline whereby they either have the vehicle repaired or arrange a suitable swap. I think 4 weeks would be reasonable.

Then your S75 or court action would be much stronger.

If you win in court you will get what you paid minus the value in actual use that you got. This is likely to be higher than the market value if as you say you couldn't use the car a lot of the time (or at least didn't get the right utility from it).

Ok, I'll wait to see what DP comes back with on Monday and go from there.

 

[sansnom]

His point "I will look to see if a newer and less mileage car of the same model is available." I think is extremely reasonable of him, id take him on that offer, even if its not to your personal spec. Owners, dont care.

Is it? I can't see why OP should have to accept a used car replacement. I would be pushing for a full refund or replacement with brand new like for like model. Maybe you could ask for just the cash value of the used replacement vehicle to avoid having to be second owner on a car you didn't ask for or want. To be honest reading through those emails I can't see how your case is not rock solid.

 

[jpaul]

I can see that now but realistically how would that work when the selling dealership is 210 miles away?

I thought that was the deal/risk with brokers like carwow, you have a good price but if there are problems communication cost can be present.

Talking to the guy can only help, I found there were several barbed/accusatory comments in the email you sent him too - prepare an agenda for such a phone call.

if you prefer that route
Infact, I was under the impression that you were going to call me last Monday and obviously this didn't happen
At no point until Mr Piotr Daniel's email on 4th January 2019 was I informed that ....

I guess you had a loaner car during the 4-5months, otherwise, I guess, you would have included that in the email.

cash value, with deduction for usage sounds the most expediant outcome, rather than continuing a long distance 'relationship' with the dealer.
Possibility of obtaining an Independant engineers report too, is still, something I might discuss with Mike.