76 trans children at one school

Soldato
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And many humans have neither. Also, it's not clear what cells you're referring to. "sex cells" would probably best describe gametes, i.e. sperm or eggs. Those are cells, but it's odd that you would cite only size as the description of them. And yes, you'd certainly need a microscope to see them.

So by your definition all post-menopausal women are no longer female, all women who've had their ovaries removed are no longer female and all men who've had their testicles removed are no longer male. There may also be people with non-functioning primary sexual organs. I don't know if that's the case, but if it is then by your definition they are also neuter.



If you use 8 fingers and 2 thumbs as the definition of "human", then anything without 8 fingers and 2 thumbs is not human and any animal with 8 fingers and 2 thumbs is human. Congratulations! You've just defined all primates as human and some humans as not human.

Definitions must be accurate. "Mostly true" isn't good enough - you're defining something, so it must apply in all cases. That's what the definition of a thing is - a description of what that thing is. Anything that does not meet that definition is not that thing. By definition.

The cells used for reproduction.

Yes because that’s how you sex animals that you can’t tell the difference externally. Look at the size of their sex cells. The reference to “if you need one” was for non mammalian species where it is incredibly obvious, e.g. reptilian or avian eggs.

No it’s not a definition. It’s a method to sex species. If you want a definition it’s ones who have or do produce the larger sex cells (female) and the other case for male. And of course there are species that can just split their own DNA without a sperm.

All definitions are “mostly true”. Sexes exist. Just because you can’t define something absolutely accurately doesn’t mean they cease to exist. Definitions, including your definition of a definition, are a man made concept. They can be perfectly logical in your hypothetical system. Real life isn’t hypothetical. You’re trying to apply the rational to something irrational. Humans, life, are not rational. There are no absolute rules. Only ones you postulate in your head and attempt to apply to what you perceive.

Let’s narrow it to humans alone. It’s impossible to define female and male if your rule is that if you find a single exception then the definition is void. I never said 8 fingers and 2 thumbs is the definition for a human. I said part of the definition of a human is that they have 10 fingers. And if you come across a human who doesn’t have 10 fingers that doesn’t then mean that they aren’t human.

Is it incorrect to say “humans have 10 fingers”? Or “humans have 2 arms”? Or 2 eyes? 2 ears? 1 nose?

Of course not. They are all true. And yet you can find a human where they differ from these because they are anomalies. You can’t define a human. Because any definition you use there will be an exception. Or the definition will be so vague that it’s useless.

Words mean whatever you want them to mean.
 
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Soldato
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I never said anything about children, I was talking about adult gender dysphoria which very often does not just go away on its own, and was referring to the comment about curing gender dysphoria with some unknown 'medication'. As far as I know there is no such thing.

Gender Dysphoria in adults is quite different. For one, GD usually comes with the onset of adolescence so GD that has persisted into adulthood is already selected for to be something much less likely to resolve itself in favour of acceptance of birth sex. For another, the person is an adult and is presumed to be able to make an informed decision. Psychiatric help is still a treatment, but they have a right to pursue other options and for some it helps. I took your comment to be in the wider context of GD - sorry if I misread this.
 
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Soldato
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Well said, no idea if your facts are true, but the sentiment I agree with.

I hope they are. I can back them up with studies but if I'm in error on something factual, I always want correction. There are six studies I can bring to mind regarding GD in children resolving itself in adulthood. They are of varying ages and quality and give figures (iirc) from 60% to 90%, with one particular study listing 80% being generally considered most authoritative. "Resolved" can cover a few things. Like anorexia, it can settle down to a manageable state that the person can live with and / or becomes episodic, or it can often completely resolve.

One thing to watch out for and which was popularly touted by TRAs for a while, was an Australian study into GD that declared nearly 100% of GD did not resolve. It did this by pulling a No True Scotsman in the study and dismissing any cases where someone did de-transition as meaning the person was never actually trans in the first place and removing them from the pool. Astonishing it ever got published but was quoted with glee by many Trans lobby groups. That bizarre outlier aside, it's clear that the large majority of trans-identified children "grow out of it". Many of them do go on to become lesbians, however. Which is a further indication that kids are being picked up as trans simply due to gender stereotypes and sexuality.
 
Soldato
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The cells used for reproduction.

Yes because that’s how you sex animals that you can’t tell the difference externally. Look at the size of their sex cells. The reference to “if you need one” was for non mammalian species where it is incredibly obvious, e.g. reptilian or avian eggs.

No it’s not a definition. It’s a method to sex species. If you want a definition it’s ones who have or do produce the larger sex cells (female) and the other case for male. And of course there are species that can just split their own DNA without a sperm.

All definitions are “mostly true”. Sexes exist. Just because you can’t define something absolutely accurately doesn’t mean they cease to exist. Definitions, including your definition of a definition, are a man made concept. They can be perfectly logical in your hypothetical system. Real life isn’t hypothetical. You’re trying to apply the rational to something irrational. Humans, life, are not rational. There are no absolute rules. Only ones you postulate in your head and attempt to apply to what you perceive.

Let’s narrow it to humans alone. It’s impossible to define female and male if your rule is that if you find a single exception then the definition is void. I never said 8 fingers and 2 thumbs is the definition for a human. I said part of the definition of a human is that they have 10 fingers. And if you come across a human who doesn’t have 10 fingers that doesn’t then mean that they aren’t human.

Is it incorrect to say “humans have 10 fingers”? Or “humans have 2 arms”? Or 2 eyes? 2 ears? 1 nose?

Of course not. They are all true. And yet you can find a human where they differ from these because they are anomalies. You can’t define a human. Because any definition you use there will be an exception. Or the definition will be so vague that it’s useless.

Words mean whatever you want them to mean.

And when you reject definitions for political purposes, we enter the realms of Orwell's 1984. Good post, well put.

I don't think it's possible to pursue this line further. The point has been put clearly and understandably. If someone chooses not to agree with it, I don't believe further clarification or re-writing will help.
 
Soldato
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Imagine this show being made today:


At the big reveal the trans woman says "I'm not a woman, I was born as a man".

and the suggested videos that appear after - Jerry Springer show - a trans woman reveals she is trans and the guy says "you're a man" to cheering form the audience, title of the clip "Sorry, I'm a man" and the next suggested clip titled "Tranny tricks a blind man"

Interesting reactions - actually kind of the reactions I'd expect in that environment with that sort of crowd. Pretty accepting considering what the trans woman did is a form of sexual assault (sexual encounter through deception). Especially as these lads are very lad's lads. It's what I've sometimes tried to explain to some feminist types - the guys you generally need to watch out for are not the gym-bros who are more than comfortable being heterosexual males. It's usually the "nice guys" who are always talking about women's rights, etc. The reaction of the guys in the clip is actually just hilarity, contrary to what many TRAs would lead you to expect. They're not falling over themselves to agree it's a "she", but they're also not hostile. That's not universal but it's the attitude I think is most common and a perfectly acceptable attitude to have.

Also, I can clearly see the guy thinking when he's given the choice... "ten grand, **** and BJs" vs. "it's a man" before finally going "eh, we're all friends here." :D


EDIT: So I looked this show up based on a YouTube comment and have to change what I thought quite a bit. But because it's an interesting change, I feel I should leave my original comment up there even though it now makes me look a bit stupid. So the show There's Something About Miriam was apparently buried in lawsuits immediately after with the contestants suing (apparently £250k each) for sexual assault (I agree), defamation (I don't agree but I guess it depends on what sort of social context you live in), breach of contract (seems plausible) and personal injury (I don't agree but I suppose there are some people who could suffer genuine emotional distress over this so it could count as Personal Injury covers trama). So the reaction in the moment looked like I described but apparently afterwards there was either a lot of ill-will or a big opportunity to get money. The show also took a slating from trans groups as well, though I think a lot of that was the "really a man" thing.
 
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Soldato
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That's what hormone replacement therapy is, which is the only treatment for Gender Dysphoria.

No, it is not. No amount of hormone therapy will change a man into a woman.

There are also some people with an XY chromosome pair and female biology and people with XX chromosomes and male biology. Genotype is not phenotype. It's probably very rare (we don't actually know how rare it is), but my point stands - you can't use the 46th chromosome type as a completely accurate determination of sex.

I've never discounted the existence of extremely rare disorders. You can use chromosome type to determine sex. The exceptions are a statistical anomaly that are not worth considering; hence their being rare.
 
Man of Honour
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[..] Words mean whatever you want them to mean.

That's true.

You put forward a definition that you acknowledge is not accurate, then state (correctly) that words mean whatever you want them to mean.

Your definition of a person's sex is simply "because I say so". You've dressed it up somewhat, but that's the core of it.

And when you reject definitions for political purposes, we enter the realms of Orwell's 1984. Good post, well put.

I don't think it's possible to pursue this line further. The point has been put clearly and understandably. If someone chooses not to agree with it, I don't believe further clarification or re-writing will help.

Nor do I. You're doing the same thing - rejecting definitions for political purposes.

I've never discounted the existence of extremely rare disorders. You can use chromosome type to determine sex. The exceptions are a statistical anomaly that are not worth considering; hence their being rare.

The exceptions are people. You dismiss those people as not worth considering. I do not.

And indeed, are seldom what is meant by trans, in any case. It's like a Volvo saying "Look, that bicycle has stabilizers on it - I AM NOT A CAR!" Non-germane and non-sensical.

That's also true. There are different issues involved here, ones that should be considered seperately because they are seperate. Lumping them together is possibly the only thing you and TRAs agree on.
 
Soldato
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On the general topic of trans women, a real eye-opener for me was the fact that straight men are far more attracted to them than gay men are.

So a straight man who 100% isn't attracted to men but is 100% attracted to women will have sex with a trans woman, whereas a gay man who is attracted to men but not women, won't.

This sex & gender business isn't as straightforward as it seems.
 
Caporegime
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On the general topic of trans women, a real eye-opener for me was the fact that straight men are far more attracted to them than gay men are.

So a straight man who 100% isn't attracted to men but is 100% attracted to women will have sex with a trans woman, whereas a gay man who is attracted to men but not women, won't.

This sex & gender business isn't as straightforward as it seems.
Nice try, John/Julie :p
 
Caporegime
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On the general topic of trans women, a real eye-opener for me was the fact that straight men are far more attracted to them than gay men are.

So a straight man who 100% isn't attracted to men but is 100% attracted to women will have sex with a trans woman, whereas a gay man who is attracted to men but not women, won't.

What is that based on though?

I mean arguably whether they're straight or gay given they are attracted to trans women (which includes people with penises) is rather subjective, they might well define as straight and that can be logically consistent within a framework where they believe trans women are real women etc.. and that their sexuality relates to gender. Others might well dispute that and believe that a straight guy and a trans woman is gay.

This sex & gender business isn't as straightforward as it seems.

I'm not sure anyone is claiming that it is tbh...
 
Soldato
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What is that based on though?

I mean arguably whether they're straight or gay given they are attracted to trans women (which includes people with penises) is rather subjective, they might well define as straight and that can be logically consistent within a framework where they believe trans women are real women etc.. and that their sexuality relates to gender. Others might well dispute that and believe that a straight guy and a trans woman is gay.



I'm not sure anyone is claiming that it is tbh...

Will you hold my lollipop?
 
Soldato
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Is that a euphemism? :D

No licking! :D

Apparently, and this isn't a field I'm expert in, when a well-known online porn outfit moved its "shemale" category from its "gay" site to its "straight" site and saw more traffic than many of its more usual popular "straight" categories.

So that's straight guys absolutely loving the trans porn.

I have no data but can find and post the video which makes the claim if you want. It's one of Contrapoints videos though, so not sure how suitable it is for here.

(I'm a straight guy, btw.)
 
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Soldato
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I have to say i'm with the local community on this one:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...de-school-gates-against-equality-lessons.html

I just don't understand why so much resources, time and money is wasted on educating children on Trans when it only effects a fraction on a 1% of the population. When growing up in the 80's we were told that 10% of the population was gay which turns out was a bit of an exaggeration, i've been seeing figures recently that it was more like 3-4%
 
Soldato
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That's true.

You put forward a definition that you acknowledge is not accurate, then state (correctly) that words mean whatever you want them to mean.

Your definition of a person's sex is simply "because I say so". You've dressed it up somewhat, but that's the core of it.
Every definition that you, I, or anyone else believe to be true is because you, I or they say so. It’s accurate enough and that’s all that matters when you’re trying to apply the hypothetical to reality.

If I asked you what your definition of a woman is, and someone else. And there was a print function on your brain. And we printed them out, maybe there’s diagrams and pictures and text. There’ll be similarity in both. And maybe in conversation you come to absolute agreement on what a woman is. But your mental definitions will be different. Because you’ve built up definitions based on the experiences of your life.
 
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I have to say i'm with the local community on this one:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...de-school-gates-against-equality-lessons.html

I just don't understand why so much resources, time and money is wasted on educating children on Trans when it only effects a fraction on a 1% of the population. When growing up in the 80's we were told that 10% of the population was gay which turns out was a bit of an exaggeration, i've been seeing figures recently that it was more like 3-4%
A project promoting equality and tolerance towards homosexuals (amongst other groups) is objected to by followers of a religion that teaches homosexuality is unnatural and deserving of God's punishment... who'd have thought it, huh?
 
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