Interesting thoughts, thanks Kimi.
Can you either post or send me via Trust the name of your company?
Can you either post or send me via Trust the name of your company?
Air Source Heat Pump
- Thread starter rangor gubbins
- Start date
Sorry to resurrect an old post, but I am in a similar situation. Ranger gubbins, did you end up installing an ASHP?
A brief description of my situation. We have knocked down and old and are building a new outbuilding separate to our house. Its approx 80sqm in total, comprising guest bedroom (approx 15sqm), bathroom (approx 6 sqm), home office (approx 8 sqm), a gym (approx 30sq m) with the rest being garage/workshop space.
Initially we planned to heat via gas combi, then found we were unable to run gas to where we needed to. We have been toying with various ideas but leaning towards the ASHP route. The office will likely be used 4 out of 5 days a week, and bathroom accordingly. Gym 3 times a week (hopefully!), guest bedroom rarely (but perhaps at short notice). Our architect/builder is recommending under floor heating and an unvented cylinder heated via the ASHP. A few suppliers I have spoken to have recommended an air to air solution, by way of air con unit that will both heat and cool on demand, on a multi line into a condenser, then with a separate hot water cylinder powered by an immersion heater.
I dont know of anyone who has applied the air con unit heating for a reference or opinion. In terms of the time spent heating, this would appear to have the benefit that we heat on demand, a cold room could/should be heated quite quickly, with the benefit of cooling in summer. Under floor heating seems more the norm, and if we were using the house 24/7 its what I would go for. Given the progressive heating style needed, I am worried we will waste energy heating spaces that wont be used often, and the system will be slow to respond when we need a boost. The hot water supplied by the same ASHP would be a bonus though.
Any thoughts or recommendations welcome. Kiwi, would be grateful for your input here! Thanks!
A brief description of my situation. We have knocked down and old and are building a new outbuilding separate to our house. Its approx 80sqm in total, comprising guest bedroom (approx 15sqm), bathroom (approx 6 sqm), home office (approx 8 sqm), a gym (approx 30sq m) with the rest being garage/workshop space.
Initially we planned to heat via gas combi, then found we were unable to run gas to where we needed to. We have been toying with various ideas but leaning towards the ASHP route. The office will likely be used 4 out of 5 days a week, and bathroom accordingly. Gym 3 times a week (hopefully!), guest bedroom rarely (but perhaps at short notice). Our architect/builder is recommending under floor heating and an unvented cylinder heated via the ASHP. A few suppliers I have spoken to have recommended an air to air solution, by way of air con unit that will both heat and cool on demand, on a multi line into a condenser, then with a separate hot water cylinder powered by an immersion heater.
I dont know of anyone who has applied the air con unit heating for a reference or opinion. In terms of the time spent heating, this would appear to have the benefit that we heat on demand, a cold room could/should be heated quite quickly, with the benefit of cooling in summer. Under floor heating seems more the norm, and if we were using the house 24/7 its what I would go for. Given the progressive heating style needed, I am worried we will waste energy heating spaces that wont be used often, and the system will be slow to respond when we need a boost. The hot water supplied by the same ASHP would be a bonus though.
Any thoughts or recommendations welcome. Kiwi, would be grateful for your input here! Thanks!
Yes we put an ASHP in - a Nibe F2040. It's been in since beginning of Dec, but as we're still doing the house refurb and are not properly living in the house yet we don't know how the whole system will work out (cost to run!).
With the underfloor heating and insulation between the pipes and concrete sub-floor, plus insulated plasterboard on the walls, and lots of insulation in the roof, we should have a pretty well insulated house, and the ASHP does seem to be able to warm the house well on the few test runs I've done so far. I will be able to tell you more next winter!!
I did read a bit about air - air heat pumps and they sound pretty good. I found an interesting (but slightly old now) article of a case study of ASHP and solar panels. Google 2013-RS-McIntosh-Solar-HP.pdf
One big benefit for us is having the under floor heating as its so much nicer to heat the house rather than radiators.
I think you can still get grant (search for Renewable Heat Incentive) for installing an ASHP for a wet system, but i don't know if you can get grants for Air-Air HP systems.
As Kiwi mentioned earlier, just make sure you use a reputable MCS certified installer who knows how to do a proper Heat Loss Calculation. This is the key to working out if a heat pump is suitable.
With the underfloor heating and insulation between the pipes and concrete sub-floor, plus insulated plasterboard on the walls, and lots of insulation in the roof, we should have a pretty well insulated house, and the ASHP does seem to be able to warm the house well on the few test runs I've done so far. I will be able to tell you more next winter!!
I did read a bit about air - air heat pumps and they sound pretty good. I found an interesting (but slightly old now) article of a case study of ASHP and solar panels. Google 2013-RS-McIntosh-Solar-HP.pdf
One big benefit for us is having the under floor heating as its so much nicer to heat the house rather than radiators.
I think you can still get grant (search for Renewable Heat Incentive) for installing an ASHP for a wet system, but i don't know if you can get grants for Air-Air HP systems.
As Kiwi mentioned earlier, just make sure you use a reputable MCS certified installer who knows how to do a proper Heat Loss Calculation. This is the key to working out if a heat pump is suitable.
Thanks guys, at risk of asking a stupid question... I presume a heat loss calc is something that can be done beforehand, since it seems pointless to do one afterwards to then find you cant heat with an ASHP and be left with no other options?
Permabanned
We use an air to air heat pump to heat our front room. We have no gas only night storage heaters, after turning the night storage heaters on for the first time leading up to winter I very quickly made my mind up that I needed a better solution. After reading up about various solutions for a while I decided to try a split air con unit and do not regret it one bit.
I only use it when we are in and it heats the room up pretty quickly, as I’m writing this now the room is sitting at 18.1 degrees and the energy monitor reports that we are using 728 watts total power, that includes t.v, fridge freezer, pond pump etc. It will switch itself on and off depending on the temp of the room so as the temp builds up to a preset temp it will switch itself off and vice verse so it only uses power when it needs too. If you have solar panels like we do then it’s even better because on a sunny day we can basically run it for free.
I went for a this one https://www.cooleasy.co.uk/categori...0btu-air-conditioning-heat-pump-inverter.html
It took me a day to fit it by myself it was pretty straight forward but you may want to get a proper installer to do it as you retain the warranty. I’m a cheap ass and always hate to pay someone to do something I think I can do myself.
Overall it been a godsend and at some point I will fit one in our bedroom.
Thanks for that Doobedoo. Given our (relatively infrequent) use of the building, it seems air to air would be better suited to our needs, heating on demand, than air to water underfloor heating where we might be heating spaces unnecessarily and then slow to react if we needed warmth. Air to air cooling in summer would be nice too.
In practice, once a room is at temperature, does the unit then turn off and then come back on if required? I presume if well insulated, this shouldnt happen that often?
In practice, once a room is at temperature, does the unit then turn off and then come back on if required? I presume if well insulated, this shouldnt happen that often?
Permabanned
Yes you set your target temperature on the machine using a remote control and then the unit will power up until that target is met, once up to temp it will switch off again and keep repeating the process.
If your room is very well insulated the duration it will need to switch on wil be reduced due to the fact that very little heat is being allowed to leak from your room.
Here’s some text from a thread on the money saving website which is a good place to read up as their are some very knowledgable guys on there.
How does it work?
It's actually quite simple. Air conditioners work in much the same way as your refrigerator except there are two separate, but integral, parts to the system. There is an outside unit housing the compressor that is similar to the exterior back of your fridge. It draws warmth from the outside air in even the coldest of weather. That warmth is then transferred inside the home using a refrigerant process through a piping system powered by an indoor fan unit that is typically mounted to the wall. This is why the system is also often referred to as a heat pump rather then air conditioning. Both are in fact the same. Similarly, in summer, the reverse happens. Warm air is drawn from the interior room and expelled by the outside unit.
Heat Pumps are capable of transferring up to 4kW of heat into a space while only consuming 1kW of electrical energy. The energy efficiency of a heat pump will decreases as the temperature difference between inside and outside becomes greater, even at low temperatures a heat pump can provide 3 times as much heat as a normal electric space heater would provide with the same amount of electricity input. This makes Heat pumps extremely energy efficient.
"Not all Heat Pumps are designed to continue working where temperatures fall below freezing point"
The principle of air conditioning always comes down to the same: absorb energy in one place and release it in another place
The process requires an indoor unit, an outdoor unit and copper piping to connect both. Through the piping the refrigerant flows from one unit to another. It is the refrigerant that absorbs the energy in one unit and releases it in the other.
Cooling mode (Heating mode is the same but in reverse)
1 Indoor unit
A fan blows the hot indoor air over a heat exchanging coil through which cold refrigerant flows. The cold refrigerant absorbs the heat from the air and cooled air is blown into the room.
2 Copper piping
The refrigerant circulates through the units and the piping and takes the heat from the indoor unit to the outdoor unit.
3 Outdoor unit
Through compression, the refrigerant gas is heated and its boiling point increases. In the outdoor unit the obtained heat throught compression is released to the outdoor air by means of a fan which blows the outdoor air over a heat exchanging coil.
4 Refrigerant
The liquid refrigerant flows back to the indoor unit.
5 Indoor unit
Back in the indoor unit, the refrigerant is decompressed and thus enabled to extract heat form the indoor air.
Inverter Technology:
Here's some info about inverters, the same applies across all manufacturers however efficiency levels are different but the operation side of things is the same. There is an article at the bottom from Mitsubishi Electric where they have done a comparison test for a fan heater and heat pump. This is not unique to Mitsubishi Electric, similar costs will be seen across all heat pumps... its a very efficient technology. Different manufacturers will have different efficiencies. The best manufacturers are Mitsubishi Electric, Daikin, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, Fujitsu, Sanyo, LG, any other manufactures are entry level and will not offer as good quality systems or efficiencies.
Inverter systems save energy by using a variable controlled Compressor. The output is controlled to only provide the energy required to keep the room to the set temperature. By reducing the output required less power is used and this substantially reduces power consumption. Inverter control not only saves you money but also keeps you more comfortable.
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=1464827&page=89
Permabanned
We’re on economy 7 which means we have a cheap night time rate but to be honest we don’t really use a lot of hot water. We shower using an electric shower and wash up using a dishwasher.
I wanted to fit a solar power diverter to use excess solar power to heat our water, but I’m not sure we can due to our immersion heater circuit being supplied exclusively by the E7 meter with no ability to boost. I may get an electrician to sort that at some point as we would then get almost all our hot water from solar.
The problem we have is because we have no gas supply it means we have no central heating system at all. In order to have a ground source or air source heat pump to supply a central heating system, would mean a massive cost to have the pump, tank, rads and pipe work Installed. It’s just not viable.
At the minute we pay about £50-60 a month in electric only which drops to £30-40 in the summer, offset that with our fit payments means it doesn’t really cost us anything in energy annually.
I think all things considered we will seek an air to air solution. If it were our main house to heat, underfloor would be the obvious option, but due to the adhoc usage nature of this outbuilding, it seems wasteful to heat floors of rooms not regularly used. Hence warming air on demand seems a much more efficient way of doing things. Only downside is that I would be able to heat water from the same heat pump.
Permabanned
For air con units I take it?
If so just fit them yourself and forget about it. We had 2 units fitted in work about 2-3 years ago and haven’t had a problem yet. At £500 a piece it’s not the end of world if you have to replace one in years to come.
We've just fitted flats out with "Aircon" air to air heat pumps and it's working great (bedroom, kitchen, lounge). Similar to what you get in premier Inn. I'veI've running my whole down stairs off a single unit for the past 7 months while renovations are going on so they will definitely work for you as long as the units are sized appropriately.
Indoor unit just clean the filters.
Outdoor unit check the condenser is not clogged, you can use a soft brush very gently or compressed air to remove the dirt / leaf build up.
Get some leak test fluid and check the fittings for leakage - oil stains will also be a good indicator.
https://www.derbyshire-refrigeratio...RjxjJg61RbdvdhAz83kTcu2EmBH_gOw8aAsImEALw_wcB
Not much else really - refrigerant drier is brazed in and you can't do a oil change (Not easy anyway
)
Associate
TIL legionairres is good at surviving. Never knew this.