Soon to be Graduate, no idea what to do? Career Advice

[TNGL]

I think it’s fair to say earning those sorts of wages is very abnormal. I will never make that sort of money and I’m a single figure percentage of that now.

To be a partner you have to be a (kind and patient) minder, a (big client) finder or a (psycho) grinder. Sadly I think I don’t fit into any of these!

He's all three but definitely not a psycho. He looks after the IP for some of the world's biggest brands and so I can imagine all three traits come into play. I don't have a great understanding of the salaries to be had within the legal sector but what he does say is it's much harder to become a partner at the age he did nowadays.

 

[Sudden]

Thanks for the response. I have considered going in-house but most in house positions seem to be 'corporate support / general commercial' and in my experience 'commercial law' is dreadful as a junior lawyer, which I was back then (and that's actually what I thought would be most interesting). Nobody seems to give two hoots what the contracts say in 'business as usual' matters as long as the heads of terms are documented in principle, ideally by yesterday, because nobody actually looks at the contracts ever again - so in-house there's more reporting on documents than there is drafting (this is particularly 'lol' when dealing with big firms that just want deals done and often at least one side is completely "computer says no" about accepting the most reasonable of amendments). The standard of drafting was generally dreadful. Perhaps I had a bad experience but I did not find it particularly intellectually stimulating.

Corporate law (financing / share and asset purchases) was far more interesting in principle in private practice but the hours were frequently stupid, clients absurdly demanding (although in fairness they are paying a lot of money for the service) and the due diligence side of things (i.e. reporting / arse covering) was monumentally boring. Concisely reporting on existing arrangements, a typical 'junior' exercise, is actually a really hard and time consuming thing to do.

You know, I don't think it's the hours that are that bad (for me). I am usually home by 7pm and by London standards that is probably a doddle, although I have earned my right to turn up and leave when I want without any eyebrows being raised. It's what you have to turn around within those hours that sucks. Documents in, deal with them immediately, take instructions, wait for a response... get instructions and send documents back immediately - all to avoid the scorn of being accused of being sat on something. Or it's the lingering epic projects where your just waiting for something coming in that means your evening plans are cancelled. One particular project I've been involved with (which was on the BBC recently - oooo look at me) has been going on for years and it makes me feel a bit ill every time it comes up because it takes hours and hours of intellectual effort (considering every single possible outcome) just to give 2 or 3 bullet points sensible advice on what to do next. About 40 non-chargeable hours I've spent on that in the past 3 weeks (and if you have billing targets you'll know how miserable that is).

I don't know where I'm going with this rant really To make it (slightly) less about me, if I was to offer sensible advice to an aspiring lawyer I'd suggest that there are really only two types of law: contentious and non-contentious. I wouldn't turn up your nose at any particular area of law because, beyond the aforementioned 'two types', it's much of a muchness (and your experience will probably depend on your clients... also my only caveat to that is that non-contentious 'commercial law' was disappointing). Being an all rounded socially friendly person who can get on / find common ground with most has probably been my best attribute. Also, recognise when people really need your help and go out of your way to help. They will sing your praises for life. Also, don't be a jerk. Take the time to be very friendly to your opposites and you will end up having a much easier time.

Sorry for the aimless waffle!

Haha - it's interesting to hear I'm currently in the Commercial part of the legal team (I like learning things and have had the opportunity, so spent time in Litigation and work a bit alongside the IP team as well). I think it depends on where you are. I agree with you that once the contract is done, it's hardly ever looked at again. Those 'normal' contracts can be quite straightforward/dull once you get used to them. I would say that those type of contracts don't take up more than 5% of my work generally. Even on the bigger contracts which take up more time, it's a bit more interesting (mainly the negotiation piece), but not significantly since it's ultimately just about giving effect to what the business wants to do. We are big enough that there are very very few companies out there who can give us the 'Computer says no' approach (does happen though!) and it's likely us saying that (I try hard not to ).

The more interesting piece of what I do tends to be advisory. Any new feature or functionality which is going up on the website, any piece of marketing which goes live, any new policy the business wishes to implement affecting users has to go through legal. Advising on whether or not it's ok, what the risks are, how to mitigate those risks since the business likely wants to do it anyway and ultimately, how to help them to do what they want whislt minimising any legal risk is what I find intellectually a lot more stimulating. We're in a tech space so a lot of times the laws are unclear since they haven't kept up and I find that quite interesting as well and figuring out how to navigate them and how they would likely be interpreted by a court/regulator, which goes to the risk mitigation piece. I quite like the fact that sometimes it's not as much actual law, but finding solid commercial approaches to matters. I also work on the financial services side of things, but that I do find quite dry/dull. I don't think I could handle just doing contracts. I guess the point of all this is - not all commercial roles would be the same You can likely find a good variety so I wouldn't dismiss it completely. Though a bit hypocritical I suppose since my 6 months in the city firm made me never want to go into private practice.

Yeah, we're quite flexible - I can come in and leave whenever I want; work from home whenever I feel like etc. But I guess that's also part and parcel of a tech space. Most people in the legal team here can do that and no one would really question why. I have absolutely no billing targets 40 non-chargeable in 3 weeks is a bit much at a (I assume) non-Partner level. BBC is cool though I do find that entire system quite silly to be honest - you aren't encouraged to be effecient but rather the opposite. When I work with outside counsel, I almost always agree on a fee beforehand. It also doesn't allow for good training in my view - trainees should be brought along to things/involved in things because it'll be good for them to learn; not just because they can be billed out for something.

I'm not sure I have specific advice for the OP beyond the normal 'work hard' etc. Luck is also a part of it (or at least it was for me). I tried both contentious and non-contentious in my company and whilst they were elements of contentious I really liked (feeling of winning a case completely on your own, including going up and arguing in front of a judge); strategic elements when directing outside counsel in different countries on the bigger cases; making decisions which could impact the company as a whole, I ultimately made the move to commercial because I didn't feel like I was adding a ton of value. I was mostly working on non-UK cases and I didn't want to become a UK solicitor with hardly any UK litigation experience beyond small claims. I imagine contentious in a law firm would be quite different. Ultimately, trying things is the only way to tell. I had no idea if I would like law - it's only after I started working here that I realised I did. If I had started in private practice, I likely wouldn't have. Going back to my original point I guess, there are a lot of challenges of course as Nitefly has eloquently pointed out. There are pros as well though (and yes, the remuneration does help). If there are particular skills you like utilising OP in your general life/work, we can try and tell you if they are suited to law, but at least in-house, a lot of it is just common sense, backed up by a legal foundation.

That's my rant over now

 

[Nitefly]

@Sudden thanks for your post, I have nothing specific to add other than to say I enjoyed reading it

 

[Nitefly]

OK, classic example of what this profession is like. I’m sat here at work with my personal plans cancelled because a client has left things to last minute and unless I save the day by tomorrow he loses ££££. I am literally the only one who can do it because I know all the details and it would take hours to explain it to anyone else. On top of that, sorting this ‘crisis’ means I have not been able to do other work, so all of that is now even more urgent and I’m getting major heat internally for not getting that other work done. Just, urgh.

 

[Sudden]

If you ever want a more detailed chat about in-house and consider moving, feel free to trust me Happy to chat.

Can't say I don't occasionally get the same here, but being part of the business means you also have a solid idea of business priorities and timelines and unless it's super senior people breathing down your neck (highly unlikely), you can push back/defer since you aren't beholden to your business partners to the same extent and can decide if something can wait or not; they need to manage their side of things if they don't give you enough time to work on things. Generalisation of course and there are exceptions, but broadly works!

 

[StuBob]

Thanks for all the helpful insight guys!

In respect of proceeding down the legal practice route one significant barrier is the fact it would still be a further few years of work on top of the 4 (5 if you include night school) I have already done as I would need to undertake a further year of study for the Diploma and then a two year trainee-ship. It will remain an option to be honest but I don't know if it is perhaps down to fatigue or itchy feet that I am actively looking at alternatives.

 

[StuBob]

I can’t help with all of your concerns but I work for NATS and can help answer any questions you may have. My background is controller, instructor, examiner, supervisor and currently a manager but still operational. A few years ago I was involved in interviewing applicants for the trainee controller role so could help you out with anything you have questions about there.

The only thing I can say in general is that when it comes to controlling you will either have the ability or you won’t. Some of our best controllers range from multiple Ph.D holders to those with barely two O Levels to rub together. Your brain has to be wired in the right way and academic performance doesn’t always correlate.

If you have any specific questions let me know and I’ll be happy to answer.

Good luck

@Scuzi

Thanks for replying Scuzi and I would very much like to take you up on your offer as I think ATCO could very well be my type of career. Primarily due to the nature of the work, the skills it requires and the stakes. I enjoy being highly accurate and efficient in everything I do and indeed contracting with a major bank my accuracy and attention to detail has been embarrassingly recognised at operation level a number of times. I enjoy the challenge of always being on game notwithstanding the work involved, the higher the stakes the better and in finance the stakes are pretty high but ATCO will be that bit higher.

My only concern really is the application process and assessment methods employed by NATS. These have been extremely difficult to uncover information beyond their basic premise, so gleaning an idea of their difficulty has been hard to come by. Even more is the contrary advice NATS and others offer in that preparation is not necessary to the success of these tests. I have been looking at multiple examples of these numerical, verbal reasoning and error checking test which are self explanatory but it is the degree I find the diagrammatic and spatial awareness tests vary in difficulty that has me concerned. Can you shed any light on these or point me to where I may fill in any missing information?

I understand that common consensus does seem to suggest that the tests especially FEAST/DART are pretty much down to the individual and you either can or can't do them. I'm just trying to get a better picture as I don;t think I have ever passed these types of aptitude tests employed by recruiters, albeit it is more the situational judgement ones I have failed in a spectacularly frequent manner.

 

[Scuzi]

@Scuzi

Thanks for replying Scuzi and I would very much like to take you up on your offer as I think ATCO could very well be my type of career. Primarily due to the nature of the work, the skills it requires and the stakes. I enjoy being highly accurate and efficient in everything I do and indeed contracting with a major bank my accuracy and attention to detail has been embarrassingly recognised at operation level a number of times. I enjoy the challenge of always being on game notwithstanding the work involved, the higher the stakes the better and in finance the stakes are pretty high but ATCO will be that bit higher.

My only concern really is the application process and assessment methods employed by NATS. These have been extremely difficult to uncover information beyond their basic premise, so gleaning an idea of their difficulty has been hard to come by. Even more is the contrary advice NATS and others offer in that preparation is not necessary to the success of these tests. I have been looking at multiple examples of these numerical, verbal reasoning and error checking test which are self explanatory but it is the degree I find the diagrammatic and spatial awareness tests vary in difficulty that has me concerned. Can you shed any light on these or point me to where I may fill in any missing information?

I understand that common consensus does seem to suggest that the tests especially FEAST/DART are pretty much down to the individual and you either can or can't do them. I'm just trying to get a better picture as I don;t think I have ever passed these types of aptitude tests employed by recruiters, albeit it is more the situational judgement ones I have failed in a spectacularly frequent manner.

Sorry about the delay in replying, just spotted this.

Honestly, there is little you can do to prepare that will make a discernible difference IMO. Obviously an awareness of how to answer rather than trying to figure it out on the fly might save a few seconds but that’s about it. The tests are designed to test your innate capability on a level playing field.

If you pass those, what you can prepare for is the interview. When I was interviewing candidates, I was always surprised at the absolute absence of preparation in some cases. We had one guy pitch up in what I can only describe as a psychotic episode. Many of the younger candidates would turn up expecting to breeze through with no prep and would very quickly realise their mistake about 15 seconds into the interview. The successful candidates weee those who had done their homework. You’ll be expected to learn verbatim manuals that are inches thick in a period of a few months and demonstrating that capability at interview is important.

Give it a go!

 

[StuBob]

Thanks @Scuzi

I have already started my application with NATS and have passed Stage 0 & 1 last month. I have been looking at dates for my Stage 2 at CTC for the last four weeks as I'm finding it difficult to tie down a suitable date at the moment with work and assignment deadlines currently. I actually watched 'Skies Over Britain' which provides an interesting insight into NATS including new recruits, which the last episode focuses on and was particularly eye-opening. Not just the hoops I know that have to be jumped through to get to that stage but the attitude and care that needs to be applied beyond it. It looked like only 1 of the 6 candidates who were offered a position actually made it through their initial basic training at college.

I have no immediate worries about the interview and would be pretty confident with that stage, it is just the unknown element of the FEAST and possibly DART which are worrying me somewhat.

 

[StuBob]

Sorry about the delay in replying, just spotted this.

Honestly, there is little you can do to prepare that will make a discernible difference IMO. Obviously an awareness of how to answer rather than trying to figure it out on the fly might save a few seconds but that’s about it. The tests are designed to test your innate capability on a level playing field.

If you pass those, what you can prepare for is the interview. When I was interviewing candidates, I was always surprised at the absolute absence of preparation in some cases. We had one guy pitch up in what I can only describe as a psychotic episode. Many of the younger candidates would turn up expecting to breeze through with no prep and would very quickly realise their mistake about 15 seconds into the interview. The successful candidates weee those who had done their homework. You’ll be expected to learn verbatim manuals that are inches thick in a period of a few months and demonstrating that capability at interview is important.

Give it a go!

So thought I would provide a update since things have since moved on. I had booked in to sit my Stage 2 earlier this week, my hand somewhat forced as I had already been booked onto ANS assessment week at Gatwick later this month and they appear to be pretty fast moving should things go well with them so I booked onto NATS as soon as was possible. Anyway, there were 11 of us on the day and having sat FEAST in the morning, we were informed as a group it was bad news almost immediately, with all but one person having failed FEAST with instruction to leave the premises. Thankfully I was the lucky one who was asked to stay for the afternoon DART session and was delighted to find out on completion that I had passed that stage too on the day and to expect email to book onto Stage 3. It still hasn't really sunk in yet tbh as I thought some elements of the FEAST I screwed up specifically the numbers however the cubes I found relatively easy and completed with time to spare. DART was great though and found it far less intense than FEAST although there were a few moments with that too however only 2 potential conflicts and a few resets and that was my day over. Got the bus outside CTC straight to the airport and bought ticket for first flight home, I was absolutely knackered.

Having now undertaken FEAST & DART I can totally appreciate why the consensus suggests you cannot prepare for the tests and I would have to agree 100%. It may seem as though people are being deliberately coy but I now know that it really is an accurate reflection of the tests. I'll be delighted if I never have to do something like that again anytime soon. It was probably the most tense experience I have undertaken, perhaps attributable to the potential for failure and being unable to pursue the role for another 12months. There was a good variety of candidates on the day of all ages and a number of nationalities, 2 of which having flown in from Poland and the Middle East to undertake their Stage 2.

I have already booked onto my Stage 3 interview for next month in Prestwick and was informed this will be a competency based interview taken by a current ATC and a psychiatrist which will also involve some other elements to it involving pictures confused but was advised to go over the ATC booklet again, and prepare as expected for a competency interview. The NATS assessor on the Stage 2 advised similar to yourself, highlighting that there are many candidates who get to that stage and put no work into preparing for the interview by treating it as a formality. Is there anything specific or any advice you could offer in respect to this stage of the recruitment @Scuzi?

 

[Scuzi]

Fantastic news! Well done.

Again, it has been a while since I was interviewing, but the key themes for me were:
Motivation - I know it’s the modern thing to dress down a bit for interviews but don’t take it too far. Demonstrating that you give a **** at a minimum, or better still showing that you have put a lot of effort into everything does go a long way. Many people drop out when the going gets tough so the interviewers will be wanting to see that you really really want the job.

Experience - The interview is looking for evidence that you cut the mustard. A lot of the younger folks struggled to articulate how they have dealt with failure, how they structure their learning etc. This was largely due to their lack of life experience. When asked anything at the interview, try to relate it to something you have done and demonstrate how you can apply the core skill or principles to your training in ATC. It will go a long way.

Humility - Confidence is necessary to succeed in ATC however it needs to be balanced with a good dollop of humility. You’ll spend the best part of 3 years training and getting it wrong to varying degrees every day. The feedback is always comprehensive, sometimes brutal, and you need to demonstrate you can be confident and a little bit cocky whilst still being able to absorb critical and constructive feedback.

Learn the booklet you get. Verbatim. Cover to cover. Understand every bit of it. It’s sent to you for a reason. You’ll have to learn 100x more information that that in the first few months of training. You need to demonstrate you are motivated and capable of doing that. I often get asked why applicants need to know how many passengers an A321 carries. It’s not that relevant to the job but it’s there to test your motivation and capability to absorb technical information.

Also, be honest in the psych interview. They can always tell when you are lying or bull****ing!

Hope that helps. Let me know if you have any other questions.

 

[StuBob]

Just to update the thread and thank @Scuzi for taking the time to post his advice on the subject.

I have just taken a phone call from NATS today following my Stage 3 interview last week and have been informed that I have passed and will be starting my basic training late October in Jerez, Spain for 6 months.

Absolutely delighted and although it is quite a wait with it being pretty much a full 12 months since my initial application, I am glad tonnage gone through the process. There is of course hard work to come in passing training and eventually validating but the recruitment process has been one of the most difficult experiences I have gone through. Considering have undertaken it through my final year of my degree it has been a challenge to balance my current work, studies and application but now I have what will hopefully be my future career sorted I can get on with finishing this dissertation for next week!

Cheers for the help and advice on the possiblenroutes and options that I could have explored guys, it has been very helpful and much appreciated.

Stu

 

[Scuzi]

Welcome aboard! You have a tough few years ahead of you but they will be unforgettable for all the right reasons. All the best to you.

 

[TJM]

Congratulations. Sorting out a career can be a huge relief, especially if it's an interesting one.

 

[StuBob]

Welcome aboard! You have a tough few years ahead of you but they will be unforgettable for all the right reasons. All the best to you.

Thanks very much @Scuzi

I honestly can't wait to get started now that I have been offered a start date which in itself seems ages away! I have a have a few queries regarding the medical that I need to gather additional information to aid the sign off of the necessary Class 3 medical. Seems in the interests of diclosure on the medical form, detailing even insignificant previous issues, may require further investigation.

I'm very much looking forward to getting through the medical as that appears to be the last hurdle to me getting my foot through the door.

Congratulations. Sorting out a career can be a huge relief, especially if it's an interesting one.

Thanks @TJM , that's what I hoped to have done going through the process with NATS which has been an arduous task in itself. I just have to get myself through the medical and security vetting and all going well it will be the last job interview process I've had to endure!