Why can't they just remove the lid and sip like from a cup ?

Soldato
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Google the photos of the hot coffee victim's burns. They're absolutely atrocious. Then decide if it was too hot to serve to someone.

It resulted in an 8 day stay in hospital and skin grafts.

The sweatpants Liebeck was wearing absorbed the coffee and held it next to her skin. A vascular surgeon determined that Liebeck suffered full thickness burns (or third-degree burns) over 6 percent of her body, including her vagina, inner thighs, perineum, buttocks, and groin areas. She was hospitalized for eight days, during which time she underwent skin grafting. Despite the severity of the injury, she sought to settle her claim for only $20,000 – the cost of her medical treatment. But McDonald’s refused. According to some accounts, they offered her $800.

during discovery (the exchange of documents in a legal case), McDonald’s produced documents showing more than 700 earlier claims by people burned by its coffee between 1982 and 1992. Some claims involved third-degree burns substantially similar to Liebeck’s.



Just explain how they make more money serving hotter drinks please, it should cost them more in electricity to serve them hotter.

deshawlaw.com said:
McDonald’s admitted during discovery that, based on a consultant’s advice, it held its coffee at between 180 and 190 degrees Fahrenheit to ensure that it would still be hot once a person had driven several miles to work before drinking it. Other establishments sell coffee at substantially lower temperatures, and coffee served at home is generally 135 to 140 degrees.

https://deshawlaw.com/general/the-real-facts-of-the-mcdonalds-coffee-case/
 
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What I'm still kind of suprised about is why the UK haven't banned cheap plastic bags in supermarkets completely yet.

I'm guilty of wasting a huge number of plastic bags from supermarket shopping because for the sake of 10p it's not enough of an incentive to always remember to bring my own.

Our local coop now has fully bio-degradable bags - they hold a good amount in the bags too so no real compromise.

I think rather than banning, the government should force/incentivise shops etc to only have bio-degradable bags available.

I mean the 5p/10p charge to customers for wanting to use a new plastic bag has certainly driven the behaviour down, but that 5p/10p doesn't really justify the cost of having to clear that plastic bag from wherever it ends up. At least having bio-degradable ones means that it won't be around for thousands of years.
 
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I'm siding with esmozz rather than 200sols in this debate. If people think reducing the minuscule amount of straws the UK uses (compared to the rest of the world) will change anything you need to leave your UK-based echo chamber and look at how bad the rest of the world is with producing waste. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try something but the hyperbole of UK straws "ruining the planet" is just OTT rubbish -yeah lets reduce 0.000000000001%* of the worlds plastic waste by swapping UK straws and reducing the customers enjoyment!!!!!

There must be some form of coating that can be applied to the paper straw which prevents all the issues seen so far, but I bet it costs way too much to actually use unless McD's start charging 5p per straw (I've no issue with that).

* - Hyperbole works both ways :D

I don't think anyone will ever disagree that the UK pollutes a lot less than the rest of the world.

But you can't preach to others about reducing your pollution on the planet if you're not being green yourselves.
 
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Google the photos of the hot coffee victim's burns. They're absolutely atrocious. Then decide if it was too hot to serve to someone.

It resulted in an 8 day stay in hospital and skin grafts.
McDonald’s admitted during discovery that, based on a consultant’s advice, it held its coffee at between 180 and 190 degrees Fahrenheit to ensure that it would still be hot once a person had driven several miles to work before drinking it. Other establishments sell coffee at substantially lower temperatures, and coffee served at home is generally 135 to 140 degrees.
Not buying that. Coffee is made with boiled water.
Other outlets usually served it at around 67c and if you're doing it at home apparently the normal temperature is about 60c (IIRC the maximum water temp for most boilers is around 60c, and IIRC at 70c a hot water heater supplying a tap has to have a specific warning).

Who makes coffee with water from the hot tap? I dont understand that argument at all.
 
Caporegime
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I cannot be bothered to look it up now but im pretty sure it's not as simple as shop sells coffee woman spills and sues ... As in they were told its too hot and they put out misinformation .. I have spilt coffee over myself a few times over the years and never got burnt (not saying its something I'd do for fun)

I don't think they've put out any misinformation about their hot coffee not being hot... they've serve it at a range that overlaps but also exceeds that of say Starbucks: 176 - 194 F in the case of McDonalds and 175-185 F in the case of Starbucks. As for why, their reason is that the customers want it like that, I don't doubt that someone going to get a takeaway coffee then drive back to their office, building site etc.. might want it hot so that it is still at least pretty warm still when they get back.

I suspect plenty of British people making cups of tea at home of at least the same temperature have also split some on themselves and not had nasty burns too - think about it, typically if you were spilling tea on yourself at home you'd likely jump up pretty quickly, your exposure is rather brief not to mention if you were wearing jeans or suit trousers or say at home with no trousers on lots of the tea will splash off. On the other hand if you're elderly/frail with weaker skin and sat in a car unable to jump up plus, sticking a cup between your legs and wearing sweat pants which will just absorb the hot liquid (not to mention your reaction to it probably spilling even more and causing further injury/pain then the results are going to be rather different!

Google the photos of the hot coffee victim's burns. They're absolutely atrocious. Then decide if it was too hot to serve to someone.

That is partly how the case was won - jury is going to empathise with a sweet old lady, the injuries are going to cause an emotional reaction, throw in that this big evil corporation serves among the hottest coffee etc.. She's wearing sweatpants that absorb the hot liquid and she wasn't able to jump up when sat in the car + the coffee was between her legs so not exactly splashing off elsewhere but rather pooling there.

Yet in the UK, a nation of tea drinkers, we have hot drinks served at least as hot as that at all manner of places, including without a lid. Various teas are supposed to be prepared with scalding hot water and so no, as a tea drinker, I don't personally believe that establishments should be prevented from serving drinks at that temperature... I regularly prepare drinks at at least at that temperature at home myself and customers should take some personal responsibility themselves. It isn't like people just get a freshly prepared cup of black tea and take a massive gulp of it, they sip it if impatient or just wait for it to cool down a bit.

Not to mention McDonalds is still serving its coffee hot! The change they've made to prevent further legal action is seemingly to include more warnings to people that the hot coffee is indeed hot and so they have a stronger argument in future that the adult who spills it over themselves after removing the lid say was rather silly and had been warned.

Plenty of independent cafes in the UK carry no such warning, serve drinks at a similar temperature and don't even necessarily offer lids, yet if we follow the argument of the supporters of this case all those establishments ought to be liable to make a massive pay out and/or potentially bankrupt themselves if not insured simply because they've served a regular cup of tea and the customer was clumsy.
 
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Caporegime
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Not buying that. Coffee is made with boiled water.

Depends on the coffee, coffee generally isn't made with boiling water, though instant coffee that you might get from an ordinary builders type cafe is going to be not far off and at least as hot as the McDonalds coffee. Tea, especially black tea will often be at least as hot too and certainly can be brewed from just boiled water.

Who makes coffee with water from the hot tap? I dont understand that argument at all.

Filtered coffee that you'd get from a proper coffee shop is generally served at a lower temperature.

McDonalds coffee is generally served at a temperature higher than the typical coffee shop and closer to what we'd expect from tea or instant coffee from a cafe in the UK.

That it was served at that higher temperature than a coffee shop serving filtered coffee was part of how they won this case.
 
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But you can't preach to others about reducing your pollution on the planet if you're not being green yourselves.

I agree, as long as don't fool ourselves into thinking that what we decide to do will actually make a great difference. Please don't misunderstand this, it WILL make some difference, which is obviously a good thing, but people here using hyperbole to re-imagine that tiny effect into something bigger to make themselves feel better doesn't actually make that tiny effect any bigger no matter what people think.

Even being able to stand infront of other countries and use ourselves as an example won't make massive polluters like China change. So as long as we stick to reality and don't imagine ourselves to be some shining beacon for others to emulate (we aren't, they won't) then doing as much as we can, regardless of how small that effect is, is the best we can do and that should be celebrated, rather than the former "imaginary" version of ourselves some folks have here.
 
Soldato
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Even being able to stand infront of other countries and use ourselves as an example won't make massive polluters like China change.

I think we certainly could, not in the way that most are thinking though. We obviously can't threaten China with financial or other implications without suffering some sort of side-effect.

Ignoring plastic straws as they're only the tip of an iceberg, we can focus on hundreds of other ways to make our air cleaner and our people healthier.

I don't know what the exact number, but they claim tens of thousands in the UK die each year from pollution effects. In China their pollution is magnitudes worse, and their population is magnitudes the size of ours, so they must be having millions die each year from pollution effects. It'll eventually get to a point where the majority of China's population is riddled with cancer from pollution effects before they realise they need to do something about it.
 
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Sadly with an expanding population already in the billions, China can afford to "lose" probably hundreds of millions before those sort of loses would force them to change, and we as a Planet don't have that sort of time available before massive changes need to happen.

I'm concerned that too much time may have already passed and we're limited to scrambling to extend what little time we have left rather than fully reversing the effects that pollution will cause by drastically changing how we live as a planet.
 
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If people complain they might as well make their own. If a customer spills it on the self it's their fault or someone else who knocks into them. Businesses should make it hot enough to drink couple mins after then the customer should be responsible for warming it back up. Some people crying over spilt coffee as usual.
 
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From the same link edscjk posted

McDonalds’ own internal research showed that most of the customers drank the coffee while still in their car. McDonalds admitted that they had not studied the dangers associated with these high temperatures.
and
McDonalds also admitted that the customers were not aware that the coffee being served could cause full-thickness burn injuries if contacting the skin.
 
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If people complain they might as well make their own. If a customer spills it on the self it's their fault or someone else who knocks into them. Businesses should make it hot enough to drink couple mins after then the customer should be responsible for warming it back up. Some people crying over spilt coffee as usual.
I suspect you'd cry over spilt coffee if you ended up in hospital undergoing skin grafts because say, the coffee spilled whilst you were taking it from the employee at the drive through window;) (that's one of the most likely times it would be spilled.dropped and good luck getting it off your lap before you ended up with boiled nuggets).
 
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I suspect you'd cry over spilt coffee if you ended up in hospital undergoing skin grafts because say, the coffee spilled whilst you were taking it from the employee at the drive through window;) (that's one of the most likely times it would be spilled.dropped and good luck getting it off your lap before you ended up with boiled nuggets).

If coffee/tea is that hot to cause a requirement for skin grafts then there's something seriously wrong! It needs to be hot enough to drink and if it was spilt it wouldn't burn.
 
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If coffee/tea is that hot to cause a requirement for skin grafts then there's something seriously wrong! It needs to be hot enough to drink and if it was spilt it wouldn't burn.

And that was the whole issue with the case...

85c+ is enough to cause serious injuries in far less time than it takes for you to remove say a pair of trousers whilst in a car, it happens faster than you could probably get out of the car (even if the seatbelt is already undone) let alone get your trousers off to remove the hot liquid that has now soaked them and is being held against the skin causing additional damage.

IIRC one of the leading experts on burns and treating them testified in the case as to how dangerous it was.

It's one of those things where 85c if you've asked for extra hot and are drinking it in the coffee shop is probably ok, you are aware of it and have a good chance of moving out of the way if it spills, but 85c when you're handing it into a vehicle, over someone's lap, and where they are expected to be handling/drinking it in a confined space where you can't get out of the way of a spill, and where your customers aren't expecting it to be that hot is an issue, especially when you've got 100's of other instances where people have contacted you after accidents (so probably thousands who didn't either because they weren't as badly hurt or didn't think to).
 
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I'm really not sure what the point is of some argument that a hot drink isn't a "drink" because you think it is too hot and will potentially kill you...

A liquid that will seriously injure or kill a person who drinks it is not a drink. A liquid that's hot enough to cause serious injury or death isn't a matter of what I think. It's a matter of physics and biology. It doesn't matter if you ignore degrees of temperature and the different effects of them - reality won't.
 
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