Petition to sack Chris Packham from BBC

[topshot]

I support the ban.
Nature balances itself.
Issues like pigeons at airports will obviously get licences.

The argument it will cause decline in song birds when humans ruin their habits is by far the most destructive is poor.

Funny how nature was OK before our intensification of farming etc.

No it doesn't, populations of Deer, fox, corvids etc have increased dramatically over the last few years due to lack of predators. Doing nothing to control their numbers will simply lead to further increases in numbers of corvids etc and a decrease to other wildlife, particularly ground nesting birds.
Deer, rabbits and pigeons in particular need to be controlled in order to keep a healthy population whilst allowing the protection of crops, the meat is consumed and far better than any farmed chicken etc.

There are far too many people making decisons who have no idea about farming and countryside management. We have spent years improving our land through planting new woodlands, wildflowers, fox/corvid control and putting up nesting boxes etc yet a lot of people, particulaly on social media are quick to brand farmers as greedy murderers, Packham included. Nobody I know wants to erradicate crows/magpies etc but they do need to be controlled and changing the license with no consultaiton at a crucial time of year for corvid/pigeon control will only have damaging effects.

 

[topshot]

Remember when they said badgers needed to be culled..

Yeh that turned out great.

I wish we would stop ******* around with nature.

Nothing surprises me about UK farmers nowadays....the lot of them are absolute cretins.

Prime example of someone who has no idea about the countryside and its management but quick to name call. Would love to see you make a living from farming for 12 months or so

 

[ianh]

In this thread - lots of people who I would guess are mainly middle class (because the poor/rich aren't usually "won't someone think of the children" hand-wringers) with no experience of farming or living off the countryside telling people who do live/farm the countryside what to do and proving they haven't actually read the changes to the General Licence (too lazy, too stupid, don't care about facts etc) because if they had bothered they'd find that the changes do NOT stop corvids being shot..........at all.........all you have to do now is just ask permission first (give a reason there is no better way than shooting on your land), then you can go about shooting corvids all day long without issue.

However, the usual hypocrisy of a non-experienced person telling someone who is experienced "you should do it differently because I don't like it" is now more common than ever, especially since we now allow everyone with an opinion (but not many brain cells) to be heard just as much as those with experience, and this works both ways - I mean should the opinion of a farmer who gives advice over fighting inner city knife crime be given the same importance as someone who lives in an inner city dealing with it daily? No, of course not, so why should the opinion of someone inexperienced in the countryside and farming be given the same importance as those who do live in the countryside and farm?

You can still give your opinion, no-one should stop you doing that, but that inexperienced opinion should be given less importance than an opinion from someone who IS experienced - Just look at the number of non-pilots/engineers talking utter drivel over the 737 MAX as another good example of this, or anti-vaxxers vs doctors etc.

 

[413x]

No it doesn't, populations of Deer, fox, corvids etc have increased dramatically over the last few years due to lack of predators. Doing nothing to control their numbers will simply lead to further increases in numbers of corvids etc and a decrease to other wildlife, particularly ground nesting birds.
Deer, rabbits and pigeons in particular need to be controlled in order to keep a healthy population whilst allowing the protection of crops, the meat is consumed and far better than any farmed chicken etc.

There are far too many people making decisons who have no idea about farming and countryside management. We have spent years improving our land through planting new woodlands, wildflowers, fox/corvid control and putting up nesting boxes etc yet a lot of people, particulaly on social media are quick to brand farmers as greedy murderers, Packham included. Nobody I know wants to erradicate crows/magpies etc but they do need to be controlled and changing the license with no consultaiton at a crucial time of year for corvid/pigeon control will only have damaging effects.

The lack of predators is our fault again.
Besides when food gets scarce for these animals their population will correct.
And yes it does balance itself. At least when we aren't interfering.

How did the environment manage when we weren't around?


Also I have grown up in a farming environment

 

[Double07]

Oh wait farmers know best. How long have humans been eating meat and made an utter mess of this planet? I live in farming country and I can quite honestly say I hate the VAST majority of the inbred, sanctimonious, ******** lot of them (whom I know personally obviously).

I will say other farmers do exists (so I hear) who are less inclined to 'relations' with their first cousins or livestock. Must just be where I live.

 

[Wizzfizz]

Let's just kill humans instead. Then overnight all the problems will be gone.

Spot on. Might take a week though.

 

[Wizzfizz]

snip

You make zero points and love yourself (in a nice way).

 

[IronWarrior]

I think this is a very well written piece explaining why this is a really dumb idea.

Although I am a firearms owner, I don’t hunt so it doesn’t affect me but I do understand the reason this general licence is in place and it concerns me that the corvids will no longer be controlled. We already have excessive numbers of magpies and crows in the country and they’re only going to increase. I appreciate the fact that magpies are attractive looking birds but they’re actually nasty, vicious creatures.

Thanks for the link, very interesting. In the end, just an other example where townies don't know what they doing.

 

[FoxEye]

In this thread - lots of people who I would guess are mainly middle class (because the poor/rich aren't usually "won't someone think of the children" hand-wringers) with no experience of farming or living off the countryside telling people who do live/farm the countryside what to do and proving they haven't actually read the changes to the General Licence (too lazy, too stupid, don't care about facts etc) because if they had bothered they'd find that the changes do NOT stop corvids being shot..........at all.........all you have to do now is just ask permission first (give a reason there is no better way than shooting on your land), then you can go about shooting corvids all day long without issue.

However, the usual hypocrisy of a non-experienced person telling someone who is experienced "you should do it differently because I don't like it" is now more common than ever, especially since we now allow everyone with an opinion (but not many brain cells) to be heard just as much as those with experience, and this works both ways - I mean should the opinion of a farmer who gives advice over fighting inner city knife crime be given the same importance as someone who lives in an inner city dealing with it daily? No, of course not, so why should the opinion of someone inexperienced in the countryside and farming be given the same importance as those who do live in the countryside and farm?

You can still give your opinion, no-one should stop you doing that, but that inexperienced opinion should be given less importance than an opinion from someone who IS experienced - Just look at the number of non-pilots/engineers talking utter drivel over the 737 MAX as another good example of this, or anti-vaxxers vs doctors etc.

Tell me oh enlightened and educated one... do farmers like killing foxes on horseback dressed up in their finery, because it's necessary to control foxes in this way?

Do they like shooting grouse in their thousands - to the point that most of the dead grouse cannot be sold or even given away, and are simply buried en-masse in pits in the ground - because it's necessary to ... erm ... control (farmed) grouse in this way?

Do they oppose literally every re-introduction there has ever been - including beavers, etc - because they are better informed than the environmentalists pushing for their reintroduction? Do they know better than the scientists that culling badgers will help prevent the spread of TB? Scientists don't think it will but farmers keep killing and lobbying to kill more.

Or is it actually the case that farmers are only ever in favour of things that are in their own best (short-term) interests.

 

[ianh]

Tell me oh enlightened and educated one...

Have you got an actual question related to my post? If so I'd be happy to try and answer what I discussed in my post, specifically "experts vs non-experts" and/or the General Licence changes.

However, I can't answer your rhetorical questions (obviously) nor do I believe that sarcasm deserves a serious reply.

 

[FoxEye]

Have you got an actual question related to my post? If so I'd be happy to try and answer what I discussed in my post, specifically "experts vs non-experts" and/or the General Licence changes.

However, I can't answer your rhetorical questions (obviously) nor do I believe that sarcasm deserves a serious reply.

Your post contained the following defence of farmers:

In this thread - lots of people who I would guess are mainly middle class (because the poor/rich aren't usually "won't someone think of the children" hand-wringers) with no experience of farming or living off the countryside telling people who do live/farm the countryside what to do and proving they haven't actually read the changes to the General Licence (too lazy, too stupid, don't care about facts etc) because if they had bothered they'd find that the changes do NOT stop corvids being shot..........at all.........all you have to do now is just ask permission first (give a reason there is no better way than shooting on your land), then you can go about shooting corvids all day long without issue.

However, the usual hypocrisy of a non-experienced person telling someone who is experienced "you should do it differently because I don't like it" is now more common than ever, especially since we now allow everyone with an opinion (but not many brain cells) to be heard just as much as those with experience, and this works both ways - I mean should the opinion of a farmer who gives advice over fighting inner city knife crime be given the same importance as someone who lives in an inner city dealing with it daily? No, of course not, so why should the opinion of someone inexperienced in the countryside and farming be given the same importance as those who do live in the countryside and farm?

You can still give your opinion, no-one should stop you doing that, but that inexperienced opinion should be given less importance than an opinion from someone who IS experienced - Just look at the number of non-pilots/engineers talking utter drivel over the 737 MAX as another good example of this, or anti-vaxxers vs doctors etc.

That in your opinion their experience of farming the land should make their ideas paramount over the idea of non-farmers.

So I gave some examples of things farmers do that are indefensible.

 

[ianh]

So I gave some examples of things farmers do that are indefensible.

Ah so you weren't asking me a question, OK just clarifying thanks.

 

[tom01]

farmers not getting their way is never going to have a happy ending.

Completely agree with this, all to often people overlook the dependency we have on farmers and the agricultural community as a whole. Having previously dated someone from a farming family for a number of years, it really does open your eyes to just how significant it is. It is quite possibly the single most important industry to a functioning society. You take away a food source(s) and literally everything else within society is guaranteed to fall apart. Which is why I find it so confusing that from so many different directions they often get shafted, price of milk paid by supermarkets etc. It's a very tough job and without those doing it the results would be unimaginable.

 

[Fett]

But you can't shoot pigeons in the middle of towns and they don't destroy the place.

Feral pigeons are not wood pigeons. Feral pigeons do not descend in their thousands on rape, pea and Spring sown crops resulting in up to a 40% loss of yield. But interesting you mention pigeons in the city. Non-destructive control of feral pigeons is all about making it uncomfortable for them via spikes, netting, scare tactics like blank firing or decoy raptors. What does this achieve? The pigeons move on to somewhere else. Somebody else now has a problem. Move them on enough, they will end up roosting on a hospital and see what happens then.

Natural England's new licenses are all about "last resort" shooting of the 13 pest species. If everybody employed tactics to move the pigeons on, you are not solving anything but just moving the problem on to the neighbouring crops.

Even on a typical day they wouldn't get much support on this one. Given the current nature drive they are screwed . Who are we to decide what lives and what doesn't?

Oh no, a dead bird tied to my gate - our cat brought back worse. It makes me laugh that our farmers even have time to do this.

Not really. Gove has removed licensing powers from Natural England and their is huge support throughout the countryside to have the "proper" general licenses reinstated.

Was on the moors at weekend.
Got within a few meters of a red grouse to take a pic with dslr.
There is no Sport shooting them. They are sitting ducks obvious easy to kill.

Remember a lot of these people complaining aren't just or even farmers they are land owners who love shooting.

I grew up in farming so see a lot of this on my Facebook.


Corvids are so intelligent. More. So than a dog I think. So they are very able to take advantage of the environment. But they are natural.
Looking after a jackdaw while I had him.. Nothing else like it. Couldn't really call him a pet he was too intelligent. Amazing birds are Corvids. Love them.

I am not sure if you are being sarcastic or not...the fact you got within a few metres of a grouse is no indication of the sporting nature of shooting them. You do not shoot grouse by sneaking up on them. In regards to "easy to kill", there is a reason grouse shooting is the most expensive type of game shooting in the UK, it's the challenge.

I suspect you eat meat or fish...ask yourself how challenging it was to net that fish with trawl net wider than a football pitch or trucking a pig to an abattoir? How challenging or sporting was it for you to buy the meat or fish in a plastic and styrofoam tray?

Same - brilliant birds.

I picked up a magpie that appeared to be rather drunk last summer. It was wobbling around on the pavement and falling on its back. Possibly it had been hit by a car, but it was a quiet road with slow moving vehicles. Moved it to some undergrowth so it was a bit more out of sight to sleep it off.

We get jackdaws in the garden regularly, they fly over from the nearby church tower. And usually a couple of magpies - they're my favourites.

Magpies, Jackdaws and Carrion Crows are pest species. No different to rats. I am not sure a lot of people in this thread actually know how they predate. They are all intelligent, voracious predators that do their job very well and I respect them. I guarantee you that if I shoot a magpie or crow, it met it's end a lot quicker than the Curlew chicks I have seen flayed and eaten alive or the lambs that have had their eyes pecked out over half a day.

This social media mob mentality is getting out of hand. What has any of it got to do with his job with the BBC, or am I missing something?

He is a BBC presenter, a public presenter. He has amassed a very large social media following solely through his employment with the BBC and being in the spotlight and being somewhat of a minor celebrity, has used his position to push a personal agenda. Just the other day, Packham urged his supporters to email, en masse, the Chairman of Scottish Natural Heritage over their management policy. This has resulted in the police getting involved due to death threats to the chairman. Again, this is a public presenter and one that should follow the BBC Editorial Guidelines as others do.

Let's say you have an interest in PC gaming, specifically FPS shooters. Julia Hardy starts a movement to have FPS shooters banned and utilises all her resources including contacts she has made during her employment at the BBC and the followers she has gathered, the majority of which have come via the platform the BBC has given her. Would you think that fair?

The lack of predators is our fault again.
Besides when food gets scarce for these animals their population will correct.
And yes it does balance itself. At least when we aren't interfering.

How did the environment manage when we weren't around?


Also I have grown up in a farming environment

For somebody who has grown up in a farming environment, can you explain to me how the scarcity of wood pigeon food would come about? It's only one of two ways...either the pigeons eat all the crops OR the farmers don't plant anything. Which one is best? Their are ~12 to 15 million woodies in the UK, this number has been growing year in, year out...even with the General License that has been in effect for 30 years. Shooting is one of the very few reasons they are held at bay.

Tell me oh enlightened and educated one... do farmers like killing foxes on horseback dressed up in their finery, because it's necessary to control foxes in this way?

Do they like shooting grouse in their thousands - to the point that most of the dead grouse cannot be sold or even given away, and are simply buried en-masse in pits in the ground - because it's necessary to ... erm ... control (farmed) grouse in this way?

Do they oppose literally every re-introduction there has ever been - including beavers, etc - because they are better informed than the environmentalists pushing for their reintroduction? Do they know better than the scientists that culling badgers will help prevent the spread of TB? Scientists don't think it will but farmers keep killing and lobbying to kill more.

Or is it actually the case that farmers are only ever in favour of things that are in their own best (short-term) interests.

Grouse are not farmed and certainly not buried in mass graves. Have you seen what one costs on a plate? They helicopter down to London the first ones shot in the season, such is the demand.

The fact you think it's a majority of farmers who are game shooting and fox hunting on horseback is laughable I'm afraid.

Out of curiosity, do you or anybody else who supports removing the general licenses have issues with people controlling rats by shooting? What do you think of the RSPB shooting over 800 corvids on reserves/estates last year (utilising the general license) to protect vulnerable species?

 

[Yaayuh!]

lolfett

 

[cheesyboy]

Magpies, Jackdaws and Carrion Crows are pest species. No different to rats. I am not sure a lot of people in this thread actually know how they predate. They are all intelligent, voracious predators that do their job very well and I respect them. I guarantee you that if I shoot a magpie or crow, it met it's end a lot quicker than the Curlew chicks I have seen flayed and eaten alive or the lambs that have had their eyes pecked out over half a day.

I know the reality, but I like them anyway (same as I still love seeing sparrowhawks despite having seen how they will eat alive pigeons because they're too big for them to suffocate).

I don't particularly disagree on your other points, really.

I'm not actually against population control, unlike others. We change the environment so severely that we need to put some balance back in.

I'm also fairly cool with game shooting: I've had many a brace of duck and pheasant from my neighbour. I got a shock once when a duck I was butchering started quacking at me - I was horrified that it was still alive and I'd halfway cut off its breast meat (turned out its lungs hadn't collapsed, so me putting pressure on its chest caused it to 'breathe' and output a quack)

 

[FoxEye]

@Fett

Afraid you're wrong about the grouse. We leave within a couple miles of a big estate where they are bred, released and shot yearly. The amount shot is so far in excess of the demand (for meat) that indeed they are buried in pits, because they can't even give them away. We've heard this from several people who know because they are involved/friends with the staff, etc.

 

[Fett]

@Fett

Afraid you're wrong about the grouse. We leave within a couple miles of a big estate where they are bred, released and shot yearly. The amount shot is so far in excess of the demand (for meat) that indeed they are buried in pits, because they can't even give them away. We've heard this from several people who know because they are involved/friends with the staff, etc.

Trust me, I'm not wrong.

Show me any estate that breeds grouse and release them. It's why grouse are so revered, they are wild birds. It's why the moors and heathlands are so important, it's the only place they breed.

You live in Cornwall and say there is a local estate that has driven grouse? Not possible.

What is the name of the estate?

 

[FoxEye]

@Fett I don't really care if they're bred or not, it's the bit about them shooting far more than they can give away or deal with that bothers me.

I'm not going to argue semantics or what constitutes a breeding programme. They are shot yearly in such vast quantities here that they are buried in pits to dispose of the bodies.

You call it "pest control" I call it cruelty in the name of "sport". A lust for death.

Which is an odd mentality for people who consider themselves "conservationists". Toffs, yes. The estate is vast and owned by some multi-millionaire family.

I guess if you have millions in the bank you can call yourself a "conservationist" and go round blowing up the wildlife; nobody is going to stop them.

That's what groups like the "Countryside Alliance" really are. The Toffs Alliance who enjoy bloodsports.

 

[cheesyboy]

I don't know anything about grouse, but they breed pheasants for release here.