Poll: Winter Is Coming - HBO's A Game of Thrones [READ WARNING]

Who will rule Westeros?


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    471
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Associate
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Wildfire was a nice touch, suspect it might have been the mad kings caches going off rather than Cersei but who knows.

Fitting end for the Cleganes, this time Sandor pushing his brother into the flames. No more ******* chicken for him :(

Dany's descent into crazytown has been foreboded for a while but her turn, while not Anakin bad (she's got some pretty good reasons for being angry) was pretty extreme. Will she show any remorse next episode? Might need some charred childrens bones thrown at her or something. She's definitely learnt how to deal with those large scorpions, too slow to reload and pivot around. Only hope with them is to catch them unawares.
I guess they've shown this was the fate of KL all the way back in season 2 with the visions in the magi tower. Winged shadow over the city (same shot used, this time with Drogon) and the burnt out throne room with the sky exposed. Was it ash or snow falling at the end? No doubt will see Dany walk into the ruins like in her vision.

Tyrion's goodbye to Jaime was very touching, fear for him after releasing him. Also felt pretty bad for scared Cersei at the end.

Arya's definitely got one name on her list now. Hadn't noticed before but she wears her hair like Ned!

What will Jon do, assuming he's not put in chains with Tyrion?
 
Caporegime
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My dog obviously wanted me to watch it early, as I woke up at 6 a.m to the smell of poo and there were 4 piles of diarrhoea waiting for us. 3 on the new rug....she's 6 and hasn't done that for about 5 years.

Anyway, I didn't think it was awful and I didn't think it was great. It was all a bit of an anti-climax really....high on spectacle but a lot of the confrontations and deaths felt like they didn't have much weight behind them given the 8 years we've been watching the show.

The Death of Varys
The Hound vs The Mountain
Cersei and Jamie

Arya surviving about 3 different "is she dead"? fade-outs was ludicrous and then there was a white horse just standing there unscathed in a corridor of death and destruction.
 
Man of Honour
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Leaks were spot on unfortunately. However that is the first episode of the season that I actually really enjoyed. I really hope Arya kills Dany now.
I sort of don’t want Arya to kill Danny as it’s a bit too obvious - feels inevitable.

At this point I’m backing out of the thread to avoid inevitable spoilers!
 
Associate
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Leaks were spot on unfortunately. However that is the first episode of the season that I actually really enjoyed. I really hope Arya kills Dany now.

Couldn't resist peeking? Bit like reading the last few pages of a book, kinda ruin any surprises (whether you hate/like them)?
 
Soldato
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Daniel Silvermint (who's a professional writer) has an interesting take on things:

Want to know why Game of Thrones *feels* so different now? I think I can explain. Without spoilers.

It has to do with the behind-the-scenes process of plotters vs. pantsers. If you’re not familiar with the distinction, plotters create a fairly detailed outline before they commit a single word to the page.

Pantsers discover the story as they write it, often treating the first draft like one big elaborate outline. Neither approach is ‘right’ - it’s just a way to characterize the writing process. But the two approaches do tend to have different advantages.

Because they have the whole story in mind, it’s usually easier for plotters to deliver tighter stories and stick the landing when it comes to endings, but their characters can sometimes feel stiff, like they’re just plot devices.

Pantsers have an easier time writing realistic characters, because they generate the plot by asking themselves what this fully-realized person would do or think next in the dramatic situation the writer has dropped them in.

But because pantsers are making it up as they go along (hence the name: they’re flying by the seat of their pants), they’re prone to meandering plots and can struggle to bring everything together in a satisfying conclusion.

That’s why a lot of writers plot their stories but pants their characters, and use the second draft to reconcile conflicts between the two. What does this have to do with Game of Thrones?

Well, GRRM is one of the most epic pantsers around. He talks about writing like cultivating a garden. He plants character seeds and carefully lets them grow and grow.

That’s why every plot point and fair-in-hindsight surprise landed with such devastating weight: everything that happened to these characters happened because of their past choices. But it’s also the reason why the narrative momentum of the books slowed over time.

After the first big plot arc, book four was originally going to skip ahead five years. But GRRM didn’t know how to make the gap in action feel true to the characters or the world, so he eventually decided to just write his way through those five years instead.

Which meant planting more seeds, and watching those grow. And suddenly his garden was overgrown, and hard to prune without abrupt or forced resolutions. He had no choice but to follow each and every one of those plot threads, even when they didn’t really matter to the story.

And now that the plants were fully in control, he struggled to get some of the characters that had grown one way to go where they needed to be for the story. (Dany getting stuck in Meereen is the example he frequently cites.)

And because he had all this story to cover and pay off, some of which was growing in the wrong directions and needed enough narrative space to come back around, he started increasing the number of books he thought it would take him to complete the series. And, well.

So the books the showrunners were adapting ran out. What now? People assume the show suffered because they didn’t have GRRM’s rich material to draw on anymore, as if the problem was that he’s simply better at generating new plots than they are. But that’s not what happened.

For a season or two, the showrunners actually tried to take over management of GRRM’s sprawling garden, with understandably mixed results. When that didn’t work, they shifted their focus to trying to bring this huge beast in for a landing.

They gave themselves a fixed endpoint - 13 episodes to the finale, and no more - and set about reverse-engineering the rest of the story they wanted to tell. You see, I think the showrunners are not only plotters, they’re ending-focused plotters by design.

They want to deliver an ultimately satisfying experience. So with only two seasons to work with, they started asking themselves what was left to do. What could they build with the pieces left in the box? What beats did they just have to include?

What big moments did they want to deliver? Where should the characters end up? What did they think we, the audience, wanted to see on screen before the show came to an end? It was a Game of Thrones bucket list.

And once they had that list, it was time to connect the dots to make it all happen. So they started manoeuvring the characters into the emotional and literal places they needed to be for all those dots to connect up in the right way.

That’s why Game of Thrones feels different now. A show that had been about the weight of the past became about the spectacle of the present. Characters with incredible depth and agency - all the more rope with which to hang themselves - became pieces on a giant war map.

Where once the characters authored their own, terrible destinies, now they were forced to take uncharacteristic actions and make uncharacteristically bad decisions so the necessary plot points could happen and the appropriate stakes could be felt.

Organic developments gave way to contrivance. Naturally-paced character arcs were rushed. Living plants became puppets of the plot. The characters just weren’t in charge anymore. The ending was.

No one’s to blame. Keeping a million plates spinning the way GRRM did is hard. And setting those plates down without breaking too many, which the showrunners had to do, is also really hard. Creation in general is hard.

There’s a reason writers have haunted eyes and always seem like they need a hug. Give everyone a break. But: the shift in approach did have consequences.

Is pantsing better than plotting? No. And this has nothing to do with which approach is ‘right’, anyway. It’s about the approach changing in the third act. That’s the sort of thing an audience can feel happening, even if they can’t put their finger on exactly why.

The audience fell in love with one kind of show, but the ending is being imported from a different kind of show. Now, I happen to think the finale will stick the landing. It’s what the showrunners have been building toward these past two seasons, after all.

But to be satisfying, it matters how we get there, too. Treating the journey as equally important is how you get endings that feel earned. And it’s how characters keep feeling real the whole way through, even though they’re completing arcs some writer has chosen for them.

By placing so much emphasis on the ending, the showrunners changed the nature of the story they were telling, meaning the original story and the original characters aren’t the ones getting an ending. Their substitutes are.

That’s why no amount of spectacle or fan service can make this ending as satisfying as it should be. Resolutions invite us to consider the story as a whole; where it all started, where it all ended up. And we can feel the discontinuity in this one.
 
Soldato
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Yes, but it doesn't exactly trip off the old tongue as a word. Just sounds weird when the gist is about planting seeds and seeing where they go. Also, would be called "trousering" in this country, which would also give an entirely different implication. :)
 
Soldato
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I thought that visually this was a pretty epic episode, but the stupid (to me) decisions which lead upto some of the more shocking scenes were bloody awful.

Dani - See all those normal people I've come to free, well see how they've surrendered and rang the bell to say it's all over so now I can concentrate on finding and killing my actual enemy and by sparing their lives gain that "Love" I talked about earlier - Yeah well **** those people "DRACARYS BITCHES!!!!!!!!"

D&D - You know how the audience hates Cersi and want to see her given a proper ending in line with all the hateful stuff she's done - Yeah well **** those people "FALLING MASONARY BITCHES!!!!"

Jon Snow - You know how people say I'm a really principled person whose probably the most honourable person still alive, and that I'd absolutely 100% definitely brief my troops on the 2 week trip down to KL that I don't want the city sacked and innocents killed because we're only here to fight Cersi and her troops - Yeah well **** those people "I'M KEEPING QUIET BITCHES!!!!"

However I liked the Clegane-bowl, liked the Hound/Arya send off, loved the visual (but not story-telling) aspect of the Dragon going full on A-10 BRRRRRRT over the city etc but I just can't get past Dani's decision as it was utterly stupid and only written to force a future plot point which virtually guarantees that anyone with an IQ above 'Potato' can guess the outcome of the last episode now.

PS - What was the purpose of the vaunted "Golden Company" BTW, another wasted plot point I guess!
 
Soldato
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Enjoyed the episode overall but I felt the Varys storyline was rushed and not built up enough

Cersei’s death was a let down , she’s been one of the main antagonists throughout the whole saga , her death should have been much more gratifying
 
Associate
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I thought that visually this was a pretty epic episode, but the stupid (to me) decisions which lead upto some of the more shocking scenes were bloody awful.

Dani - See all those normal people I've come to free, well see how they've surrendered and rang the bell to say it's all over so now I can concentrate on finding and killing my actual enemy and by sparing their lives gain that "Love" I talked about earlier - Yeah well **** those people "DRACARYS BITCHES!!!!!!!!"

D&D - You know how the audience hates Cersi and want to see her given a proper ending in line with all the hateful stuff she's done - Yeah well **** those people "FALLING MASONARY BITCHES!!!!"

Jon Snow - You know how people say I'm a really principled person whose probably the most honourable person still alive, and that I'd absolutely 100% definitely brief my troops on the 2 week trip down to KL that I don't want the city sacked and innocents killed because we're only here to fight Cersi and her troops - Yeah well **** those people "I'M KEEPING QUIET BITCHES!!!!"

Agree about Dani, think they could have had the sack of the city still happen if she just attacked the red keep (killing those trapped) and have her character, while incredibly tarnished still redeemable. Certainly not now.

Cersei probably deserved a 'bigger' death but her dying with her twin wasn't a bad way for their story to end. Thought it was quite sad really at the end, petrified for herself and her child but had Jaime there to comfort her as it all (literally) caved in.

Don't think Jon could do too much and he wasn't being quiet, tried to hold men back and killed the rapist but the sack had begun. At that point he was just one man. Armies running rampant through a city, no matter how much they've been commanded not to, is something that almost always happens, sadly even today. That's all on Dany and Grey Worm.
 
Soldato
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I think Cersei and Jaime dying that way, whilst not the big death she deserved, was good enough for me and maybe, if one can use this term for a show like this, more realistic in how people tend to get their comeuppance? If indeed they ever do.
 
Soldato
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As a stand-alone episode this had a few great atmospheric acting moments and was a superb overall experience. But as a coherent, believable, unrushed climax to eight seasons of Game of Thrones? That tear running down my cheek isn't smoke in my eye.

I agree that Jamie & Cersei had a certain quiet satisfaction to it, but she's been a hollow character this series and he... well, his arc was probably the best in the books, so I might never have been happy with its end. I thought he was going to get torn to shreds after waving his gold hand in the crowd that was shut out of the Keep. That might have been a bit more 'subversive'.

Anyway, catharsis:

Bafta for best invisible performance: Undead Khal Drogo as Aquaman, for spitting Euron out at the perfect moment. Even better than when everyone was coughed up simultaneously onto the beach in full clothing and armour at Dragonstone.
Bafta for best unlimited energy source: Drogon, capable of single-handedly powering Westeros into the industrial age.
Bafta for worst falling masonry: The bit that didn't kill Arya fifty-seven times. I so wanted to enjoy that section, but it was like a computer game, not a drama. Press X to dodge!
Bafta for best unused mercenary company: The Golden Shower. Shame they couldn't hide behind their elephants.
Bafta for most money wasted: The Iron Bank. They'll have to charge for bank accounts after this write-off.
Bafta for worst guarding: Jaime's Unsullied guards, who didn't notice he'd gone, apparently.
Bafta for fastest tide: Blackwater Bay. Euron's fleet destroyed close to King's Landing, then burning on the horizon when Cersei's surveying her downfall.
Bafta for consistently stupidest Stark with least effective command structure (ie none): Jon 'You Know Nowt' Snaw, screwing up battles since season 6.
Bafta for keeping remaining wildfire in attics, not buried under the city where it was supposed to be: Special effects department. The FX budget clearly had plenty of green fire left.
Bafta for most innocents slaughtered in 8 seasons: Dany 'so what if I normally only kill guilty folk?' Targaryan.
Bafta for best plot armour: Drogon, who rolled infinite dexterity and hit points for this episode.
Bafta for running out of creative steam: D&D... and me. There is much, technically, to praise this episode for. But I don't care who does what to who any more, which is a horrible thing to be able to say... or maybe it's the best way to end a series? No desperate desire for the next, never to be seen series, just relief that there's only one more episode to go.
 
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I think Cersei and Jaime dying that way, whilst not the big death she deserved, was good enough for me and maybe, if one can use this term for a show like this, more realistic in how people tend to get their comeuppance? If indeed they ever do.

Well I didn't find it particularly satisfying.

The evil b**ch get what she deserved.
A show trial or at the very least a slower, more desperate / begging for mercy type exit.
Something like her walk of shame, but ends with her head on the chopping block, or maybe have the Dothraki rape her and leave her for dead, then Jamie finds her and she dies in his arms.
Or have the dragon throw her around in-front of everyone then slowly eat her alive while she panic screams (then the screams suddenly go silent on one last crunch of the jaws).

You know something rather shocking, but at the same time poetically ironic to match her level of evil.

I should take up script writing, I'd 'really' have Dany earn that Mad Queen status.
I'd have you all either fist pumping or screaming at the TV lol.
The red wedding would be a warm-up act.
Put it this way... I couldn't do much worst.
 
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Soldato
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I think Cercei should have had a better death but other than that i thought it was enjoyable.Although i have dropped my standards a bit given that that this season has been rushed, it’s a real shame.

So whats next weeks episode? A long procession? Is the iron throne still intact?

A six feet under style forward vision to when tbe characters are in there deathbeds?
 
Soldato
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If I was to treat the episode in isolation of inconsistencies and badly done story arcs of this season, I would actually say it was very well done cinematically and certainly entertaining.

As it stands though, in the face of all the previous seasons, it's just another disappointment in the disappointing season that won't do the show justice.

Varys thing was rushed and wrapped up quick for the sake of it closing that story arc, not sure if there will be any significance to the notes he was writing in the beginning.

Danny went crazy as everyone expected but she sure went even more mad than I anticipated, what exactly was the catalyst to just keep going like that after the bells? I don't think she even had much regard for her own troops towards the end. I think at this point we can definitely expect a new South vs North divide or even civil war. Guess I shouldn't be surprised at Greyworm going loco either, lost his Sundae and he does after all follow his Queen to the end, Unsullied are just becoming another invading evil army now, power corrupts and all that.

This is where we have to confront the elephant in the room though (or lack of them ;)) and that's the dragons in this show going from useless lumps to total weapons of destruction. Not sure what was so different about Drogon this episode that we go from two dragons getting taken down with ease by an ambush party to one dragon easily dispatching an entire fleet with walls also all being manned by more ballistas. I guess a little bit of cloud cover makes all the difference, but the whole thing just makes zero sense and very poor piece of writing to advance the plot.

I was wrong about Jaime going to KL to kill Cersei, not sure how I feel about the whole thing seeing how his story arc was one of the most interesting ones. Then he just reverts back to old self and dies like that. On one hand it is very GoT, can't help what you love and what you love kills you in the end, but I thought his character really developed on from that. I also guess Euron was very tired after his swim from the ship because no way would Jaime survive that fight. Just hope Tyrion gets to live now or no castle for Bronn ;)

Cersei got a pretty merciful ending all things considered, honestly don't even care because she was nothing but a prop with zero depth this season. Safe to say that there must be more Dothraki and Unsullied left in the army because speaking of hollow characters, no one seems to listen to Jon Snow much. Then again once the blood thirst set it, I guess there wasn't much he could do, but I'm not sure where he now stands as commander of anything.

Was good to see the Cleganebowl and goodbye with Arya, the Hound was hardly going to find any peace after he killed the Mountain so may as well die in a GoT fashion like that. As far as the season goes though it's Jaime's death that upset me the most, just don't know how I feel about his character crawling back to Cersei after all the development in previous seasons.

Also did I miss something or has Gendry been left behind in Winterfell?
 
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