Caster Semenya could be forced to undertake hormone therapy for future Olympics

ubersonic said:
No, and IMO nobody should be penalised for being born with a natural advantage that makes them physically superiour to 99% of the population, hell that describes EVERY SINGLE OLYMPIAN... >.>
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Exactly, the people coming up with "what about [olympic sprinter] and their long stride etc.." are missing the point, that is simply a natural advantage, unless we're segregating based on that then it is irrelevant.

Hodders said:
Ian Thorpe won 37 gold medals in swimming and has SIZE 17 FEET. The guy has flippers. No one complains - after all "it's natural". Should a promising swimmer be able to have his/her feet surgically 'lengthened'? What about surgically webbed hands?
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I'm not sure what point you're trying to make with this argument - do you think people should complain about that? It seems fairly obvious why no one complains about it, because it is irrelevant - we don't segregate swimmers based on the size of someone's feet.

Hodders said:
Hormone levels seem to offer a clearer link to athletic performance and any "unfair" advantage. But where does this stop?

If Caster reduces her hormones to "normal" female levels then does she still have the benefits of a skeleton and muscle attachments that come with "male" growth patterns and adolescence? Sadly she is an innocent 'drugs cheat' who unwittingly and through no fault of her own has been taking testosterone for years. A bit like the East German athletes in the 70s and 80s.
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I think they should just have a third category for trans and intersex athletes (or at least intersex athletes fitting certain criteria whereby they benefit from male advantages).

Or just make it clear that "male" is the open category and "female" is protected to XX females + intersex females who fit certain criteria.

I think, given the CAS previous ruling and the narrow scope of the current restrictions + evidence required to just get limits imposed for selected running events that this will be an ongoing debate for some time. There are other obvious areas where things like bone structure/height advantages etc.. of trans or intersex athletes will be an issue such as basketball various martial arts etc... We might still have further issues in future with say an intersex sprinter with male advantages who doesn't have to suppress their hormones if they carry on identifying as female and competing leading to further legal challenges etc..

Hodders said:
Personally - I feel terribly sorry for her. But now she knows the truth of her situation (even if we don't) can she really feel that she is winning? Surely it must feel like an over 18s rugby team beating a U12 team - a bit hollow.
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She's known for over a decade now though, maybe this is a view for Reddit's "Am I the *******" but I don't really feel sorry for her anymore, while this should have been handled behind the scenes and her medical tests shouldn't have been leaked etc.. she has carried on competing against biological females knowing full well that she isn't one and that she's got a clear (male) advantage. It is an inherently selfish thing to do, especially when she's been actively fighting against what is at least a reasonable compromise to try and reduce her advantage and still allow her to compete.
 
Schlong&Stable said:
Utter nonsense. The fact there are the occasional oddity does not undermine the existence of a binary. Those are rogue values which are statistically unimportant.

The overwhelming majority of men and women fall into fairly narrow ranges. We are binary in most respects.
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Yup, most of us do fall into accepted categories. But calling someone who doesn't a "rogue value" and "statistically unimportant" is pretty hurtful to anyone that is in that category.
 
Anything other than "binary" is inefficient and doesn't really exist in nature. There is no use for anything more than 2 genders. Anything in the middle is a deformity.
 
Am I wrong in thinking that the events she runs at she hasn't broken any of the world records that stand for most of the events that she runs in? so with that in mind people before her without those advantages have set faster world records. I mean you could say those athletes may have been on drugs I guess I don't know but if that isn't the case those times still stand as the world records.

Personally I think its unfair when she has no control over it and being forced to do this just screams that there have been to many complaints from salty athletes that cant get close. Best thing to happen would be for her to take the treatment and then still dominate the completion. Although I still don't agree with it. But that's my view with my limited understanding.
 
Dugganator said:
Am I wrong in thinking that the events she runs at she hasn't broken any of the world records that stand for most of the events that she runs in? so with that in mind people before her without those advantages have set faster world records. I mean you could say those athletes may have been on drugs I guess I don't know but if that isn't the case those times still stand as the world records.
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You do realise the women's 800m world record is the longest standing world record in athletics? It was set by a women aged 32 who rather suspiciously got quicker during her late 20s... it would be rather hard to break these days without doping. Likewise she also at one time had the 400m record, though was beaten by the only other woman to break 48 seconds... again set in the 1980s by someone from behind the iron curtain who very likely was doping.

Caster probably could have broken it if she tried, there has been quite a lot of speculation that she's generally held back in races so as not to generate even more controversy.

Personally I think its unfair when she has no control over it and being forced to do this just screams that there have been to many complaints from salty athletes that cant get close. Best thing to happen would be for her to take the treatment and then still dominate the completion. Although I still don't agree with it. But that's my view with my limited understanding.
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Can you be more specific with regards to what exactly do you think is unfair here - do you think anyone who simply identifies as female should be able to compete for example? Like would it be unfair to prevent say a trans-female from competing too? Do you believe we should have separate male and female events?
 
Dugganator said:
Am I wrong in thinking that the events she runs at she hasn't broken any of the world records that stand for most of the events that she runs in? so with that in mind people before her without those advantages have set faster world records. I mean you could say those athletes may have been on drugs I guess I don't know but if that isn't the case those times still stand as the world records.

Personally I think its unfair when she has no control over it and being forced to do this just screams that there have been to many complaints from salty athletes that cant get close. Best thing to happen would be for her to take the treatment and then still dominate the completion. Although I still don't agree with it. But that's my view with my limited understanding.
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There's no treatment you can take for being a biological male who has been through puberty. For example if I take steroids (which are derived from the male hormone testosterone) for 2 years, I'm going to benefit from those 2 years of steroid use for the next 10 years or more, that's how powerful the difference is. You don't undo the advantages by ensuring natural levels during competition.
 
Dugganator said:
Am I wrong in thinking that the events she runs at she hasn't broken any of the world records that stand for most of the events that she runs in? so with that in mind people before her without those advantages have set faster world records. I mean you could say those athletes may have been on drugs I guess I don't know but if that isn't the case those times still stand as the world records.

Personally I think its unfair when she has no control over it and being forced to do this just screams that there have been to many complaints from salty athletes that cant get close. Best thing to happen would be for her to take the treatment and then still dominate the completion. Although I still don't agree with it. But that's my view with my limited understanding.
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Almost all women's records date back to the '80s.

It's because back then doping was rife. It gives women a bigger boost than it does men (so the men's records have all been beaten).

They were doping with androgens. Kind of like Semenya, except hers is natural (due to being genetically male and having testes) and she is partially resistant to the hormone: hence developing somewhat female.

Google Jarmila Kratochvílová to see the world record holder. Dead ringer for 80s Roger Daltrey.
 
thanks for the replies

My thoughts were that she is a women that produces to much testosterone. Maybe I'm wrong with that :p should read more up on this to be fair. I guess another way to look at this is did she choose to be this way i.e. took steps herself or was that the way she was born.

I don't think trans athletes should be able to swap gender and then jump into that sport totally wrong. And protecting that should happen, I do wonder given it seems more people are changing gender what the impact will be in years to come. Will it be something that is pushed to be accepted and given into or will there be trans Olympics or something like this. I honestly have no idea on that.
 
Dugganator said:
My thoughts were that she is a women that produces to much testosterone. Maybe I'm wrong with that :p should read more up on this to be fair. I guess another way to look at this is did she choose to be this way i.e. took steps herself or was that the way she was born.
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From what we know, it seems that she is a xy-chromosome 'male' who is partially androgen resistant, causing her to develop mostly female. Her body doesn't respond to her high testosterone in the same way a man would, but she's certainly had some effect from it (deep voice is a very obvious one)
 
Hodders said:
Yup, most of us do fall into accepted categories. But calling someone who doesn't a "rogue value" and "statistically unimportant" is pretty hurtful to anyone that is in that category.
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And if we were discussing the weather for example and I abruptly said "You're a rogue value and statistically unimportant" they might have good reason to be hurt. But we're not and if they're hurt by the facts of life, there's no helping them.

Were I a transsexual, I'd probably avoid subjects like this to protect myself. If they choose to come into it and get hurt, it's on them not me.
 
cheesyboy said:
From what we know, it seems that she is a xy-chromosome 'male' who is partially androgen resistant, causing her to develop mostly female. Her body doesn't respond to her high testosterone in the same way a man would, but she's certainly had some effect from it (deep voice is a very obvious one)
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My understanding on this subject (which, putting my hands up, could be wrong) is that there are four primary biological factors that contribute to defining a persons sex:
  1. Chromosomes - genetic sex
  2. Ovaries or Testes - gonadal sex
  3. External genitalia appearance - genital sex
  4. Müllerian ducts/Wolffian ducts - internal reproductive sex
Leaked reports have confirmed that Caster is genetically male, gonadally male and genitally female. No information is forthcoming currently on which reproductive glands Caster has, but as the Wolffian ducts are attached to the testes in men and the Müllerian ducts are attached to the uterus and we know Caster has testes and no uterus it is reasonable to assume the internal reproductive sex is male too. An autopsy could confirm this but I don't think it's reasonable to require him to go through that particular medical procedure! :)

3 out of 4 factors define Caster as a man, deformed external genitalia doesn't make you a woman - any more than a man injured in an accident who loses penis and testicles becomes a woman.
 
Under 15 males can beat women in football so "progressive" ideology is ultimately just going to push women out of their own sports, #metoo is already reported to be impacting on the willingness of men to employ women in business. So progressive.
 
If she really loved her own sport that much, then the simple solution would be to reduce her testosterone levels and start competing again. But she knows full well that if she did she probably wouldnt be as competitive....

"Under the rule, all athletes with a difference in sex development should reduce their blood testosterone to a specific level for at least six months – and then maintain that for the rest of their athletic career – in order to compete in events from 400m to a mile. Semenya has remained “steadfast in her defiance” to do so and, as such, is unable to defend her 800m world title in Doha later this month without taking hormone-suppressing drugs. So the South African, has started training with Gauteng-based JVW FC with a view to making her debut next season as the transfer window is currently closed."
 
mmj_uk said:
Under 15 males can beat women in football so "progressive" ideology is ultimately just going to push women out of their own sports, #metoo is already reported to be impacting on the willingness of men to employ women in business. So progressive.
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Fantastic logic here. Women shouldn't report sexual abuse and should instead put up with it because abusers won't then employ them! Brilliant.

There's nothing progressive about allowing biological males to compete with biological females. You've just some extreme SJW with no understanding of sport bleating away and alt right mumsnet nerds take the bait.
 
I'm surprised she had passed any of the drug tests seeing as she couldn;t get her **** in the bottle.
 
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Nasher said:
Anything other than "binary" is inefficient and doesn't really exist in nature. There is no use for anything more than 2 genders. Anything in the middle is a deformity.
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This is absolutely untrue. In fact the more one looks to the animal world in an attempt to establish gender as a “naturally” binary system, actually, the more it serves to prove that nature is not as binary as you believe. There are many examples of bon binary in Nature, look it up.
 
Threepwood said:
This is absolutely untrue. In fact the more one looks to the animal world in an attempt to establish gender as a “naturally” binary system, actually, the more it serves to prove that nature is not as binary as you believe. There are many examples of bon binary in Nature, look it up.
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so if it ain't male or female then what is it?
 
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