Poll: Winter Is Coming - HBO's A Game of Thrones [READ WARNING]

Who will rule Westeros?


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Man of Honour
Joined
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I don't know how anyone can watch that video and then still think that this final season did the show justice. Everything he covers in that amusing video is perfectly accurate. I also love how we're "raging" because we don't think that Season 8 was as good as the rest and that it's terrible that the writers simply couldn't be bothered to stay true to the characters and have any continuity whatsoever. It really surprises me that so many people are ok with how the show finished. I guess some just have really low standards, or are simply blind fanboys that don't want to hear anything bad said about the atrocious final season. My issues with it aren't how it ended i.e who sits on the throne etc. The throne is largely pointless now anyway. I do however have a big issue with so many story threads just simply being forgotten toward the end, to the point where they might as well have never mattered at all.
It is a very funny vid but nevertheless I’m able to shrug off or explain the majority of the criticisms away. I’m not sure that anyone has said “this final season does the show justice”. Everyone has some gripe with it, including me. You can dwell on those gripes, or not. If you didn’t enjoy it, that’s fine - your experience is only properly perceived by you.

If I may speak / muse generally, I do think in life it’s far easier to criticise than it is to praise. It’s just human nature to want to unravel the works of others. Heck, it’s what many of us do for our day jobs (including me). I think it’s also far more enjoyable to criticise things than it is to praise them. By criticising, you ‘defeat’ the object of criticism and in a way, become superior to it. This is true for all things in life and all people experience and enjoy criticising in the same way.

I do however think that people enjoy being critical of things far too much, for the wrong reasons. By being critical of popular things, the object of criticism expands to those also experiencing the same object, and some of those people are also defeated, enjoyably. Some posters in this thread are absolutely guilty of this. You are tipping into this territory with your comment that “I guess some people have really low standards”. Well, consider us defeated, if that’s enjoyable to you *shrug* :)
 
Soldato
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- Not explaining anything about the NK and his motivations after 7 seasons of build up is terrible writing.

That's not quite true, we had an enitre flashback episode of how he was created by the Night Childern as a weapon of war against the humans encounching thier land, but the NK was a weapon that was out of control and began to destory everything


Might have been breif but i felt i didn't need to know anymore than that
 
Caporegime
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If I may speak / muse generally, I do think in life it’s far easier to criticise than it is to praise. It’s just human nature to want to unravel the works of others. Heck, it’s what many of us do for our day jobs (including me). I think it’s also far more enjoyable to criticise things than it is to praise them. By criticising, you ‘defeat’ the object of criticism and in a way, become superior to it. This is true for all things in life and all people experience and enjoy criticising in the same way.
I am sure that that pseudo-psychological twaddle sounded much more meaningful in your head than it comes across on e-paper.

The reality is that if the season had of been good (or even half-decent) then the vast majority of fans and critics would have been praising it. The fact is that it was a terribly written season and an ignominious ending to a beloved show... so they aren't.
 
Man of Honour
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I am sure that that pseudo-psychological twaddle sounded much more meaningful in your head than it comes across on e-paper.

The reality is that if the season had of been good (or even half-decent) then the vast majority of fans and critics would have been praising it. The fact is that it was a terribly written season and an ignominious ending to a beloved show... so they aren't.
If only I had your prestigious intelligence :_[
 
Soldato
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It is a very funny vid but nevertheless I’m able to shrug off or explain the majority of the criticisms away. I’m not sure that anyone has said “this final season does the show justice”. Everyone has some gripe with it, including me. You can dwell on those gripes, or not. If you didn’t enjoy it, that’s fine - your experience is only properly perceived by you.

If I may speak / muse generally, I do think in life it’s far easier to criticise than it is to praise. It’s just human nature to want to unravel the works of others. Heck, it’s what many of us do for our day jobs (including me). I think it’s also far more enjoyable to criticise things than it is to praise them. By criticising, you ‘defeat’ the object of criticism and in a way, become superior to it. This is true for all things in life and all people experience and enjoy criticising in the same way.

I do however think that people enjoy being critical of things far too much, for the wrong reasons. By being critical of popular things, the object of criticism expands to those also experiencing the same object, and some of those people are also defeated, enjoyably. Some posters in this thread are absolutely guilty of this. You are tipping into this territory with your comment that “I guess some people have really low standards”. Well, consider us defeated, if that’s enjoyable to you *shrug* :)

If you can shrug off or explain the criticisms away, go for it, rather than trying to describe to me your definition and breakdown of criticism. It's pretty simple. If you don't like something, you'll criticise it. The "criticisms" raised in that amusing video are 100% accurate, so I'm not really sure how they can be explained away. The points he makes about the plot is how they actually happened in the show, and it's amusing because it's just so bad that they happened. And even despite this, many have said that they're satisfied with the way the ending was done. I, however, just don't get this and it's not unreasonable for me to say that this must come from these people having lower standards, because quite honestly, if you cared about the characters and cared about their stories being finished off and not simply forgotten about, you'd feel the same way that I feel about this season.

It's not really about defeating anyone; that's not my intention here. I am invested in the books, and I was invested in the TV series and this final season was supposed to take all the major threads from previous seasons and expand on them to finish the show off. Instead of doing that, it's left huge holes in the stories of central characters, and made most of them out to be witless buffoons, conveniently forgetting about what they're capable of, and their past experiences. Nobody realised the dead in the crypts would be risen during the battle of Winterfell. Nobody. We've got a bunch of really clever individuals (as demonstrated in past episodes) preparing for the battle, and this doesn't come up? Peter Dinklage said himself that it's stupid that nobody realised that, because they just would. We've got these same clever people preparing for the battle. We know they had plenty of time to do this because we had loads of filler in the first two episodes (although season 8 has shown that time can simply be bent so who knows what the actual timeframe really was). The battle tactics of previous battles were so much better than the tactics used at Winterfell, so even though the armies were again commanded by mostly the same people, somehow the tactics are inferior and instead we get something for cinematic show, with loads of forces wiped out and then somehow, a few episodes later, they've multiplied again? Right, ok.

The Night King doesn't matter. At all. The buildup from season one is simply dealt with in a rushed episode and that's all we get after that. Dany goes mad within a few minutes and literally goes against everything she's ever stood for, burning innocent people in the city that she's won. Cersei is killed by a building with Jamie at her side (works well given that he was actually becoming a good person). Arya is back to being a frightened little girl again, and somehow finds a magical ethereal horse in the rubble of the city. The scorpions on the ships and ramparts can't kill one dragon because they're not buffed for accuracy anymore. Bran is made king at the recommendation of Tyrion, a prisoner. Bronn, a greedy sell-sword, is made master of coin. Jon's heritage is ignored (whilst Sam and Sansa look on). There are so many issues with these final episodes, but we're just nitpicking, right?

I'm really not moaning here, and I resent it when people play down these issues as such and we then get told that it simply needs to be forgotten about. I have watched this show since the first episode. I was invested in it. Invested in the characters, invested in the stories of those characters, and then it turns out in the end that you might as well have had no fleshing out of any characters because they've just gone against everything you've ever known about them. Those people not understanding our disappointment are the ones that I'm saying have low standards. Because when you look back through everything (and I've not even gone into proper detail nor listed everything wrong with S8) it makes a mockery of the entire TV show. I just hope the books end up being better, but who knows whether they'll even be finished.

I'm so hoping that the Wheel of Time TV series will do a better job than GoT did. It's certainly better fantasy.
 
Caporegime
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If only I had your prestigious intelligence :_[
It has nothing to do with 'prestigious intelligence', just basic common sense. The negative reactions from fans and critics worldwide is due to the massive and justifiable disappointment people are feeling due to the directors not doing the series justice with this final season. The difference in quality between the first 5 seasons and season 8 is simply shocking.

If the season 8 had of been good and well written, or even at least as good as Season 7, people would have been happy.
 
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Soldato
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1 Dec 2003
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3,490
i think they were damned if they do damned if they don't
the books are not finished and they did not have time to wait for George R martins ending (is he even planning on ending the book series yet?)
they would have been under pressure to get it finished both from fans and HBO
the last season was pretty poor, i think if they could have went with the 10 episode and fleshed it out a bit more
i did really enjoy the whole series though, first series i've been hooked on in a long while. breaking bad was the last one, but i actually felt it went on a bit long, it was definitely time for it to end when it did.
 
Soldato
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Does make you wonder where we'd be if Martin at least finished one book during the whole series, HBO could even consider replacing D&D since they wanted out for Disney.

I'm sure with more source material, they could find competent writers to continue the series. Then again we don't know exactly how easy it would be to continue on with some of the main actors also wanting to move on to bigger things as well.

It's basically the lack of source material and writers with possibly actors wanting to move on other things (now that they have their fame) that resulted in this poor and rushed season 8. To the extent some of the later seasons too but those look like gold standard compared to what happened in S8 :D

If all source material was there and completed, I'm sure this could have gone on for 12 seasons and more like some people said. That may work for a smaller show but for a big and successful TV series like this, the ever increasing salaries and egos of everyone involved normally put a shorter expiration date on these projects.
 
Soldato
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It has nothing to do with intelligence, just basic common sense. The negative reactions from fans and critics worldwide is due to the massive and justifiable disappointment people are feeling due to the directors not doing the series justice with this final season. The difference in quality between the first 5 seasons and season 8 is simply shocking.

If the season 8 had of been good and well written, or even at least as good as Season 7, people would have been happy.

This is basically it. Anyone who says that season 8 was satisfying simply were not invested enough into the show to have a clue about what was going on. If you were to skim all 8 seasons while intermittently looking at your phone then I can understand peoples satisfaction but anyone who actually really watched and invested time and effort to get emotionally involved in the characters would have been devastated by the lack of writing ability in season 8
 
Soldato
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That's not quite true, we had an enitre flashback episode of how he was created by the Night Childern as a weapon of war against the humans encounching thier land, but the NK was a weapon that was out of control and began to destory everything


Might have been breif but i felt i didn't need to know anymore than that
So then he's a super duper evil, one dimensional, copy/paste villain that's not worth 7 seasons of buildup. Euron Greyjoy had more depth than him.

Just being evil isn't character motivation.
 
Caporegime
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This is basically it. Anyone who says that season 8 was satisfying simply were not invested enough into the show to have a clue about what was going on. If you were to skim all 8 seasons while intermittently looking at your phone then I can understand peoples satisfaction but anyone who actually really watched and invested time and effort to get emotionally involved in the characters would have been devastated by the lack of writing ability in season 8

Even though it seems like the Season 8 failings should be obvious, many people are easily pleased and don't have a critical eye and mind that allows them to objectively assess things in detail like this.

Indeed it is rapidly approaching 8 full years since the last books release.
At two pages per week he'd have a large volume by now....
I do feel for the guy as he clearly ha writers block or some major issue affecting is motivation, but in the end this is his legacy and life's work and he should not let others affect that.

So then he's a super duper evil, one dimensional, copy/paste villain that's not worth 7 seasons of buildup. Euron Greyjoy had more depth than him.

Just being evil isn't character motivation.

It makes me sad when I think how amazing the Night King could have been... instead after 7 seasons of letting us believe it was an impending Armageddon he was cheesed in one episode by ayoung girl and his army conveniently exploded with him. It was so lacking in any impact that it almost defied belief. D&D should go to writer hell simply for not having an epic showdown with Jon Snow and the Night King where after an awesome duel he kills him with Mormonts valerian steel sword. They could also have given us a bit more insight into his motivations and maybe even engendered a bit of distant sympathy for his crusade. For me the entire battle and final showdown should have been 2 episodes minimum.
 
Commissario
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Panting like a fiend
The army exploding/falling with his death is pretty much in line with a lot of mythology regarding magic and necromancy, IE when the person controlling it goes, so do his creations as the magic flows through/from him,
Given the NK was actively controlling his army and was the one that animated them/brought them back, when he died it made sense for them to go as well as the magic was no longer controlled/there.

Think about some of the vampire and werewolf mythology where someone can be brought back from being bitten if the one who bit them (or the head of the vampires/pack) is killed within X time as it nullifies the curse/magic, or most of the necromancer type stories (where "at best" when the necromancer dies his creations become mindless, if the creations don't just stop and fall down/dissolve/explode).

You're basically nitpicking over which system of magic the GOT world used, and the fact they didn't have the fight you personally wanted.
 
Associate
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2 Jul 2003
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The Night King doesn't matter. At all. The buildup from season one is simply dealt with in a rushed episode and that's all we get after that.
I agree, I don't think anybody thinks the low number of episodes this season has done it any favours at all. Ep3, while spectacular had some serious flaws. Many of which could have been fairly easy to fix.

Dany goes mad within a few minutes and literally goes against everything she's ever stood for, burning innocent people in the city that she's won.
That's not really true. She's been progressively getting more and more authoritarian and hard line. She burns her enemies alive. Just because in 90% of the cases they were bad people you shrug and think she's the people champion. Personally I figured her for lost when she burnt the Tarleys.
Bend the knee or you die?! That's hardly virtuous. Burning Dickon when he was clearly just there out of a misplaced sense of duty was just pure spite.


Cersei is killed by a building with Jamie at her side (works well given that he was actually becoming a good person).
Arya is back to being a frightened little girl again, and somehow finds a magical ethereal horse in the rubble of the city.
Arya was just our POV in the city, hard to keep a steely calm when you've got the end of the world happening around you. Ethereal horse was one belonging to a Dothraki so not really that out of place?

The scorpions on the ships and ramparts can't kill one dragon because they're not buffed for accuracy anymore.
This is more an sfx thing than an actual story problem. Rhaegal getting hit three times in an ambush is fine. Flying low and in a straight line. A more 'realistic' sfx shot would have been lots of them whizzing by and a few hitting. But they were clearly trying to get a gut punch reaction from the audience as Dany would be feeling with having one hit out of no where, then two more so you know he's dead.

Bran is made king at the recommendation of Tyrion, a prisoner.
A prisoner yes, but 3/4s of his audience are on his side. You don't think Bran would be a good choice?

Bronn, a greedy sell-sword, is made master of coin.
There purely as a goodbye scene to one of the most popular characters - otherwise people would be complaining they never saw what happened to him. Ok, fair enough might have made more sense to make him the leader of the armies as he seemed competent at that.

Jon's heritage is ignored (whilst Sam and Sansa look on). There are so many issues with these final episodes, but we're just nitpicking, right?
Trying to raise him up as king with the unsullied and all those that want him dead there would not have been a good idea. Maybe the should have spelt that out for the audience, I didn't think it was needed after Yara and Aryas exchange.

I'm really not moaning here, and I resent it when people play down these issues as such and we then get told that it simply needs to be forgotten about. I have watched this show since the first episode. I was invested in it. Invested in the characters, invested in the stories of those characters, and then it turns out in the end that you might as well have had no fleshing out of any characters because they've just gone against everything you've ever known about them. Those people not understanding our disappointment are the ones that I'm saying have low standards. Because when you look back through everything (and I've not even gone into proper detail nor listed everything wrong with S8) it makes a mockery of the entire TV show. I just hope the books end up being better, but who knows whether they'll even be finished.

I'm so hoping that the Wheel of Time TV series will do a better job than GoT did. It's certainly better fantasy.
As much as I like WoT it's a totally different animal. Not so sure it will translate well to TV without huge changes to story and characters.



Even though it seems like the Season 8 failings should be obvious, many people are easily pleased and don't have a critical eye and mind that allows them to objectively assess things in detail like this.
...
It makes me sad when I think how amazing the Night King could have been... instead after 7 seasons of letting us believe it was an impending Armageddon he was cheesed in one episode by ayoung girl and his army conveniently exploded with him. It was so lacking in any impact that it almost defied belief. D&D should go to writer hell simply for not having an epic showdown with Jon Snow and the Night King where after an awesome duel he kills him with Mormonts valerian steel sword. They could also have given us a bit more insight into his motivations and maybe even engendered a bit of distant sympathy for his crusade. For me the entire battle and final showdown should have been 2 episodes minimum.

I think everybody can see the reduced episode count has had an adverse affect on this series. It's the incessant picking apart of every. single. thing. that grates. And you call it "objectively assess"?!
Dismissing Arya as just a "young girl" is not objectively assessing at all. You make it sound like some chambermaid in winterfell finished him off.
That episode has problems, Arya killing him is not one of them!

The complete unwillingness to give any scenes their due this season grates. Game of Moans it became. There has been some great stuff this season. Tyrion for the first time since season 2 really came to the fore again.

The whole point of Jons arc was meant to be about the prophesised, reborn hero who would save the world. Everybody and their dog assumed that meant from the NK. Instead it turned out it was to face Dany. I really liked that twist.
Having Jon kill the NK with his former masters sword after an epic showdown would be a complete cliché and take away from what it turned out his true purpose was. If they took your suggestion then a lot of easily pleased minds would be very... erm, non pleased.
 
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