Siliconslave's how to make espresso thread

[Snookums]

@Participant I wouldn't even bother with the double walled as the single wall once you nail how to use them will produce a better drink everytime. I presume the spray is from the back pressure of the double wall and and pressure must have just gotten too high before the puck had been fully moistened.

As for you double basket pouring too fast I'd suggest setting the grind a little finer and tamp a little harder than a single shot. I only make singles when changing beans to check I have my grind settings and tamp pressure about right for that bean. I'd say i tend to tamp a little lighter on the single Where on the pressure gauge is your single shot hitting and then where is your double shot hitting?

What grind setting are you currently on?

 

[Participant]

@Participant I wouldn't even bother with the double walled as the single wall once you nail how to use them will produce a better drink everytime. I presume the spray is from the back pressure of the double wall and and pressure must have just gotten too high before the puck had been fully moistened.

As for you double basket pouring too fast I'd suggest setting the grind a little finer and tamp a little harder than a single shot. I only make singles when changing beans to check I have my grind settings and tamp pressure about right for that bean. I'd say i tend to tamp a little lighter on the single Where on the pressure gauge is your single shot hitting and then where is your double shot hitting?

What grind setting are you currently on?

Thanks for the help so far. The grind is set to 3, which with a single basket results in the pressure gauge showing towards the maximum of the espresso range and a nice shot. With a double basket, the pressure range never increases past the pre-infusion section. With the machine set to the 5 that it shipped with, it was even worse.

I've just tried a double shot using a single basket and the pressure built fine there. So it must either be the tamp or a faulty basket?

Whether or not I end up using the double walled basket, I'm more concerned with whether the machine is faulty or not. All the videos I saw recommend pulling a double shot with a double non-pressurised basket.

The sticker on the underneath also says BES870UK rather than BES875UK, which is what it was advertised as?

The right milk jug turned up at least!

 

[Snookums]

Thanks for the help so far. The grind is set to 3, which with a single basket results in the pressure gauge showing towards the maximum of the espresso range and a nice shot. With a double basket, the pressure range never increases past the pre-infusion section. With the machine set to the 5 that it shipped with, it was even worse.

I've just tried a double shot using a single basket and the pressure built fine there. So it must either be the tamp or a faulty basket?

Whether or not I end up using the double walled basket, I'm more concerned with whether the machine is faulty or not. All the videos I saw recommend pulling a double shot with a double non-pressurised basket.

The sticker on the underneath also says BES870UK rather than BES875UK, which is what it was advertised as?

The right milk jug turned up at least!

For a start that sounds awfully fine! The recommended go to is 7 or 8 then normally a slight fine tune for the bean to find the fully correct grind is needed. Lowest I've ever gone is my current bean which is at 6. So maybe up your grind setting, as that may have been why the double wall exploded as its too fine so the back pressure built up way too high. Granted there will be a handful of beans so it may be right, show us a photo of the grind at like 6 or 7.

From what I have found the ideal pressure is 12 to 1 o clock on the gauge however I have noticed milky drinks can be more lenient and you can go down to around 10ish and it'll still taste good.

Try and do everything systematically then, use the single wall single shot measure out 9g's of coffee and then with the pf on a set of scales apply 30lbs of pressure (about 13kg) and run a single shot. Then do exactly the same but for a double shot, measure out 18gs of grind and tamp with 30lbs pressure again. Measure what comes out of each shot too (in grams not volume). And post back what you get. Any glarringly obvious issues will show if you have as many inputs constant as possible.

Also would you mind uploading a photo of both of your baskets and i can compare to mine and see if looks like there is any defects or damage.

As for the machine model number iirc there is absolutely no difference in the machine it is literally just the jug.

 

[Participant]

For a start that sounds awfully fine! The recommended go to is 7 or 8 then normally a slight fine tune for the bean to find the fully correct grind is needed. Lowest I've ever gone is my current bean which is at 6. So maybe up your grind setting, as that may have been why the double wall exploded as its too fine so the back pressure built up way too high. Granted there will be a handful of beans so it may be right, show us a photo of the grind at like 6 or 7.

From what I have found the ideal pressure is 12 to 1 o clock on the gauge however I have noticed milky drinks can be more lenient and you can go down to around 10ish and it'll still taste good.

Try and do everything systematically then, use the single wall single shot measure out 9g's of coffee and then with the pf on a set of scales apply 30lbs of pressure (about 13kg) and run a single shot. Then do exactly the same but for a double shot, measure out 18gs of grind and tamp with 30lbs pressure again. Measure what comes out of each shot too (in grams not volume). And post back what you get. Any glarringly obvious issues will show if you have as many inputs constant as possible.

Also would you mind uploading a photo of both of your baskets and i can compare to mine and see if looks like there is any defects or damage.

As for the machine model number iirc there is absolutely no difference in the machine it is literally just the jug.

I just set it to 9 on the grinder and it resulted in this:

Very quick shot with almost no pressure. Sounds noisy too right?

To reiterate doing exactly the same with the single basket results in lots of pressure and a good shot.

Here are my baskets:





Thanks again for your help!

Going to go and try a tamping half way through a double dose and see what happens.

 

[Siliconslave]

I'd go with a double (shot) basket every time - should be more forgiving and who has time for singles? The double won't be the same settings than the single and in theory as long as your not putting all your weight on the tamper you shouldn't be able to over tamp.

Had a quick look at the pressurised basket thing (this is a pretty good summary - https://www.guide2coffee.com/guide-2-coffee-1/2012/06/23/pressurised-vs-non-pressurised-baskets) - throw that rubbish away (or put it back in the box) all its going to do is mess you up by hiding any errors and make fake crema.

I'd start from the beginning (I know its a waste of coffee, but given the results so far...)

• use a double shot, unpressurised basket,
• set the grind in the middle (or where it was for that video)
• weigh your coffee (18g for a double, after grinding)
• increase grind till you get 25second ish extraction.

Finally, what the coffee? Some beans you'll never get a great pour from, if its old and stale it'll be impossible to get right i'm afraid

 

[mattyg]

it's leased nonetheless No ? .. maintenance contract ....

expect to see some latte art pictures from your barista interview

Nope paid for outright.

Barista didn't show...

 

[Participant]

I'd go with a double (shot) basket every time - should be more forgiving and who has time for singles? The double won't be the same settings than the single and in theory as long as your not putting all your weight on the tamper you shouldn't be able to over tamp.

Had a quick look at the pressurised basket thing (this is a pretty good summary - https://www.guide2coffee.com/guide-2-coffee-1/2012/06/23/pressurised-vs-non-pressurised-baskets) - throw that rubbish away (or put it back in the box) all its going to do is mess you up by hiding any errors and make fake crema.

I'd start from the beginning (I know its a waste of coffee, but given the results so far...)

• use a double shot, unpressurised basket,
• set the grind in the middle (or where it was for that video)
• weigh your coffee (18g for a double, after grinding)
• increase grind till you get 25second ish extraction.

Finally, what the coffee? Some beans you'll never get a great pour from, if its old and stale it'll be impossible to get right i'm afraid

OK thanks. I've used the pressurised basket once and it sprayed coffee everywhere, so that has gone into early retirement.

Have just tried grind on 6 with double unpressurised basket and double shot, tamping as hard as I could half way through grinding / dispensing:

- The double basket shot failed again. Poured very quick, no pressure.
- Using everything else exactly the same but with a single shot basket (both single and double shot button tried) resulted in good shots.

With grind at the finest the pressure still fails to get out of pre-infusion with the double basket.

It's bizarre. How can the basket be at fault? I wonder if it's not sealing properly with the group head for some reason.

Beans wise I've tried Waitrose Sumatra Mandheling and Lavazzo Rosso, both purchased in the last few days. Unsure when roasted but if the machine is really that fussy I can't live with it anyway. My £250 Delonghi managed just fine with the same beans, and this machine manages fine with these beans with a single basket too.

 

[mattyg]

We used a double shot in everything around 18-18.5g with an infuse time of around 24 secs.

Tamping we "round the world" (sort of pressure around the edge first) which should get rid of any air bubbles (gaps) then tamp.

Not saying we are experts yet as we are still far from it. Learning with every new serve.

Hints for the steam wand.
1st a quick blast to get rid of any cooled water
Then submerge the wand slightly as you turn it on to get some foam started then lift the jug a little. You want to get the milk to swirl around the jug from there you can adjust the depth as the milk is progressing.

Its easier said than done and we've gone though a few bags of coffee and a few cows worth of milk playing around

 

[mattyg]

OK thanks. I've used the pressurised basket once and it sprayed coffee everywhere, so that has gone into early retirement.

Have just tried grind on 6 with double unpressurised basket and double shot, tamping as hard as I could half way through grinding / dispensing:

- The double basket shot failed again. Poured very quick, no pressure.
- Using everything else exactly the same but with a single shot basket (both single and double shot button tried) resulted in good shots.

With grind at the finest the pressure still fails to get out of pre-infusion with the double basket.

It's bizarre. How can the basket be at fault? I wonder if it's not sealing properly with the group head for some reason.

Beans wise I've tried Waitrose Sumatra Mandheling and Lavazzo Rosso, both purchased in the last few days. Unsure when roasted but if the machine is really that fussy I can't live with it anyway. My £250 Delonghi managed just fine with the same beans, and this machine manages fine with these beans with a single basket too.

Dont know if I'm teaching you to suck eggs and I may be corrected. But think of the ground coffee as a filter. the finer the ground the harder the machine has to work and the longer it takes to pour a shot. The courser the ground the quicker the shot but flavour will be compromised.

 

[Participant]

Dont know if I'm teaching you to suck eggs and I may be corrected. But think of the ground coffee as a filter. the finer the ground the harder the machine has to work and the longer it takes to pour a shot. The courser the ground the quicker the shot but flavour will be compromised.

Thanks. I've now tried grind settings ranging from 12 to 1 with two different sets of beans and none of them work properly with the double basket. Single is fine.

W T F

 

[Snookums]

I just set it to 9 on the grinder and it resulted in this:

Very quick shot with almost no pressure. Sounds noisy too right?

To reiterate doing exactly the same with the single basket results in lots of pressure and a good shot.

Here are my baskets:

Snip

Thanks again for your help!

Going to go and try a tamping half way through a double dose and see what happens.

That is odd, I have just attempted to atleast try and replicate it and the lowest I can get with tamping is the very bottom end of the espresso range.

The noise levels sounds perfectly normal to me they arent quiet machines. If you were local (notts) Id say you can borrow my double basket and see if thats the issue. Or just straight up replicate what you are doing on my machine to see if its user error (which I very much doubt it is as single shots are fine but best to tick off whats right and whats wrong methodically.)

 

[Siliconslave]

Tamping shouldn't make that much of a difference, but don't do it as hard as possible, a firm pressure is fine. Is there no middle ground between stalled (nothing coming out) and what your getting there? Seems very weird

Might be worth giving sage a call?

 

[Participant]

Might be worth it yes, though I'm probably going to just initiate an exchange with eBay as I cbf to muck around like that for something I've just bought.

Here's a blank shot with the double pressurised basket. Makes a right racket and no water comes past, yet there's no pressure. I stopped it as I was worried it was going to explode. The previous attempt sprayed steam everywhere!

 

[jpaul]

Have just tried grind on 6 with double unpressurised basket and double shot, tamping as hard as I could half way through grinding / dispensing:
- The double basket shot failed again. Poured very quick, no pressure.
- Using everything else exactly the same but with a single shot basket (both single and double shot button tried) resulted in good shots.
With grind at the finest the pressure still fails to get out of pre-infusion with the double basket.

so grind 6, is too coarse, runs through too fast (and 9 from video)
and with finest 1 , nothing comes out - is that what you meant, so too fine

so the answer is in the middle. 3 or so ?
grinders can be very sensitive, may need to select 3.5, say ?

Beans wise I've tried Waitrose Sumatra Mandheling

those beans .. that we discussed way back, are very oily, I would have concerns about gummying up the grinder ... that's what I saw with my Rockym grinder.
I'd almost say clean the grinder and try the other beans exclusively (initially)

 

[Snookums]

Might be worth it yes, though I'm probably going to just initiate an exchange with eBay as I cbf to muck around like that for something I've just bought.

Here's a blank shot with the double pressurised basket. Makes a right racket and no water comes past, yet there's no pressure. I stopped it as I was worried it was going to explode. The previous attempt sprayed steam everywhere!

I feel bad for recommending xs items now. Hopefully they are as good about this as they were about my missing jug. Question have you tried the single double wall basket? Could it be for some bizarre reason its the double shots that are the issue.

I'd make a post over on coffeeforums as they know their stuff over there and I'm sure will be a great deal more help.

 

[Participant]

Thanks for the help guys. To answer @jpaul 's grinder question, even with the grinder at 1 with the Sumatra beans, the pour is too fast, the pressure doesn't rise, and the puck is soaking wet.

I've just tried a third variety of beans that are medium roast, not oily, and the double shot / double basket works a lot better, with a decent crema and the pressure gauge going ~1/3rd up the espresso dial.

The grinder was totally clean when the machine arrived so the problem isn't (yet) the oily beans gumming up the grinder, though they may well do longer term. At least with this machine it's easy to clean.

So something about a double density of ground beans with those Sumatran dark oily beans (my favourite ) seems to upset the machine. If that's the reason, I'm a little disappointed that the machine is that fussy, as they're my favourite supermarket beans and are only £3.50 a packet!

I guess I've now signed up to fancy artisan beans at £10 a pop if I want to use this machine!

What I can't understand is why the pressure is very low instead of very high with the dark oily beans.

 

[Participant]

Update: I just had another go with the dark oilies. I set the grind to the finest it would go to and dosed the basket much higher than before, holding the portafilter in so it was grinding manually until it was spilling out, then gave it what I believe they call a 'gorilla tamp' - result was the pressure gauge shooting up to max espresso range and a pretty damn nice Americano.

So for now I'm happy after all!

My assumption is that I was under-dosing it all along, although I was using the razor thing as a guide. Weighing out the dose is tomorrow's exercise!

Thanks a lot for all the help.

 

[Snookums]

Update: I just had another go with the dark oilies. I set the grind to the finest it would go to and dosed the basket much higher than before, holding the portafilter in so it was grinding manually until it was spilling out, then gave it what I believe they call a 'gorilla tamp' - result was the pressure gauge shooting up to max espresso range and a pretty damn nice Americano.

So for now I'm happy after all!

My assumption is that I was under-dosing it all along, although I was using the razor thing as a guide. Weighing out the dose is tomorrow's exercise!

Thanks a lot for all the help.

i thought you had been weighing the doses! Whenever you change beans weigh in the dose, so guess a grind amount on the dial and measure, and fiddle with it till it is giving out what you need everytime, I am guessing the reason the single was going well was because smaller mass out meant a smaller discrepancy to what was expected so it kinda worked.

Glad you've got it all good and working! I've never even used that razor tool thing. Usually the pf will be overfull and I gently tamp down to a flat top with one finger then use the actual tamp to make a solid tamp.

I'd also recommend ditching your favoured supermarket beans and find somewhere that has roast dates on the package and find a bean you like from them! Most supermarket beans have no roast dates and the ones that do are still usually 3/4 month old beans. Best flavour is generally a week to 2 weeks after roasting which you'll only be able to get from local roasteries or online.

 

[jpaul]

Here's a blank shot with the double pressurised basket. Makes a right racket and no water comes past, yet there's no pressure. I stopped it as I was worried it was going to explode. The previous attempt sprayed steam everywhere!

I guess snookums can try that experiment ... pressure only builds up, when the coffee presents resistance to the water, and with a 'blank' shot , yes you would expect some water to come through ... leave the pf off completely - what happens ? I can't believe the machine senses lack of resistance and stops the water.

 

[Siliconslave]

Volume does not equal weight.

When the beans are roasted they dry out, depending on the beans and the roast the volume per weight can vary massively. Please try weighing your grounds (pre shot), and i'd imagine you'll find the weight is off.

As mentioned some beans will never get a decent shot out of them i'm afraid, regardless of how fine etc you grind them.

Very weird about the clean shot - have you had anything go out of the double basket? you don't have a backflush plate in there somewhere?