What level of intelligence is required for Evil?

Soldato
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I don't think being evil requires a certain level of IQ as I think ultimately being evil is an extreme version of being selfish.

I think most people have a good and bad side to verying degrees, and that is part of life to becoming a better person.

I think we see more evil at lower iq's because to do an evil act people generally try and get away without being seen, when nobody is looking. A lower iq person in my opinion tend to take the chance more than someone with a higher iq who is more aware of the raminifications of doing the act.

When it comes to psychopaths the worst combination is the low iq psychopath. A psychopath feels no empathy and is very robotic in their actions (I've experienced being around one). A psychopath isn't evil by definition. But there are less social barriers for them to take that chance on doing something bad.

I think being evil is is doing something unnatural and harmful to others with no realistic benefit for themselves.
 
Caporegime
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is that last bit correct? If there is limited food, I know you may try and take it (I can put myself in your shoes)... I need it all to survive... I kill you... I smart u dumb I survive to pass on my genes? (assuming I took into account all other survival factors, like getting you to help me kill everyone else and killing you in your sleep... before you kill me)...

actually if I needed to kill you was it even evil?

Do you really need all of the food to survive? do you have to kill me or is it a choice? assuming you're the stronger you could just scare/subdue me and I might choose to go hunting for food elsewhere even if there is none.
 
Soldato
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In these discussion a thought always occurs to me on the separation of us (humans) and them (the rest of the animal kingdom). There is no doubt that we are the dominate species and our intelligence plays a part in that but we aren't all the different to animals. Social conditioning may have us act a certain way however that sits on top of our basic animal instincts that we share with every animal. You can be the most passive person in the world but if something makes you jump or there's a chance of a fight you can be sure you're going to get a massive hit of adrenaline to get you ready for fight or flight. Going out to get laid? Well better make sure you look your best. This list goes on for how we still obey our quite basic animal instincts no matter our intelligence.

So on to the topic at hand, I'd actually say that 'evil' has nothing to do with intelligence. We (as animals) can be as evil as the cat playing with their prey. The only difference is when humans do it we know it's 'evil' but that doesn't make it more or less evil IMO.
 
Soldato
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Lack of empathy? isn't that what psychopaths have? a certain level of intelligence is needed to feel empathy but sometimes even the most intelligent people lack it.

You wouldn't be able to treat others in evil ways if you could put yourself in their shoes.

Perhaps it is the lack of empathy that makes (Some) psychopaths torture their victims.

Perhaps they actually crave empathy but it is only through extreme emotion (Good or bad) that they can actually experience it?
 
Caporegime
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I thought to be evil you must have an understanding of the consequence of what you do and it's society implications and not give a toss anyway. Kids can't do that?

Not just the opposite of some religious concept of good and evil.

I don't know tbh.
I think it's religious hyperbole.
 
Soldato
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there is no such thing as good and evil its all in your head...

If you think its "evil" then it is (as far as you are concerned), if you think its good its good...

What you think is "good" might be another persons evil and vice-versa...

Moral relativism. I've little interest in it. For one, it's more used as a tactic for shooting down argument than it is an expression of someone's real belief. For two, there are differences between having conflicting goals and and being immoral. Two soldiers in a war may be on differing sides yet both be fighting to protect their families. Whilst a person who hurts for fun would meet the common definitions of evil. Moral Relativism attempts to mix the former up with the latter. For third, it rejects the idea of objectivity. Ultimately, in purely practical terms, moral relativism saps a society's health. Cultures that believe in Moral Relativism lose to cultures that don't.

Moral relativism is a tactic, not an expression of real belief.

As morality is a purely social construct you would need the social consciousness to be either consciously or sub-consciously directed towards the propagation of the species for that to be accurate.

If core moral principles occur through all societies that argues against such a position. Otherwise one would expect great variations in it. Additional moral analogues occur in pre-Society creatures for want of a better term. We may phrase our values in terms of morality yet those same values exist objectively beyond just those creatures that can be said to have a society (animal kingdom is rife with our most cherished values). Some "morality" is froth on the surface and varies all the time - sexual mores chief amongst them - but the OP is concerned with "Evil". And that suggests to me core moral principles that are nearly universal.

The legal system should reflect morality and ethics in society and they allow insanity as a defence so I'd say if a person was impaired to such an extent by their mental health that they could not be considered responsible for their own actions then know they haven't committed an act of evil.

Question: Would you include upbringing in that such that a person didn't believe what they did was wrong due to their beliefs? Your "not knowing" principle would seem to support this as well as insanity. And if you do extend it to upbringing then what prevents you from extending it to a society or social group?
 
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Soldato
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If core moral principles occur through all societies that argues against such a position. Otherwise one would expect great variations in it. Additional moral analogues occur in pre-Society creatures for want of a better term. We may phrase our values in terms of morality yet those same values exist objectively beyond just those creatures that can be said to have a society (animal kingdom is rife with our most cherished values). Some "morality" is froth on the surface and varies all the time - sexual mores chief amongst them - but the OP is concerned with "Evil". And that suggests to me core moral principles that are nearly universal.

So, I should clarify that I think it's probably a mix of both, the point I was making, and the issue I was taking, was with Dawkin's approach to morality which I find quite black and white. I'm willing to concede that the ingrained core tenets of our moral code which effectively boil down to not doing harm to others except within certain circumstances, are probably programmed as a survival mechanism. However I think what we see in modern society is a widening of the net in terms of those pre-existing moral codes to include those groups that would have been considered outsiders previously, homosexuals, other ethnicities, animals, and also a narrowing of the acceptable reasons for stepping outside of the moral norms. Now you're right that these fluctuate but I'd argue that the prevailing direction is widening of inclusion and narrowing of exceptions.

One of the difficulties in discussing evil is fact that the term is so ingrained in religious dogma. A few hundred years ago homosexuals were evil, centuries before that women who stepped out of line were evil, before that blasphemy was associated with evil. I suppose really what we're asking is, are there people out there who are predisposed towards being incapable of operating in a way that society will deem to be, on balance, morally acceptable, and is intelligence a pre-requisite to this?

Question: Would you include upbringing in that such that a person didn't believe what they did was wrong due to their beliefs? Your "not knowing" principle would seem to support this as well as insanity. And if you do extend it to upbringing then what prevents you from extending it to a society or social group?

It's when you start applying morality to real life situations that the application of morality itself becomes a tricky moral quandary, because you have to decide where you draw the line, and that has consequences. In answer your question, maybe. For me belief is only half of the equation, there is also understanding. Take somebody like Anders Brevik for example, I have no doubt he believed that what he was doing was right, even though the rest of the World was appalled by his actions, but he was also quite aware that society would not see it this way, and he was aware of the law and the reasons for the law, so in cases like that then no, I wouldn't extend the same understanding.

However you could also look at the examples of, for instance, a lost tribe who would kill outsiders, either due to fear, a custom of isolation, tradition, whatever. In that example I would say the tribe members aren't able to adhere to the morality of wider society as they haven't had any exposure to it, in their culture what they did was right and they have no reason or opportunity to challenge that view.

I suppose in between the two is the conditioning one might receive through upbringing, but again that's accounted for in law where somebody who is subject to such a level of undue influence from a family member or authority figure or group that they effectively cease to be responsible for their own actions. For instance you could have somebody who has had a crap upbringing, who has only ever known abuse but who fundamentally understands that those actions are wrong, but then you get the people who have the same situation growing up, and on top of that they're conditioned from birth to believe, truly believe, that the state and wider society are Evil constructs out to persecute and hurt their families.

It's a tricky one but basically, as with anything the line eventually gets drawn through experience, how much undue influence is required before a person's free will is eroded and they've effectively become conditioned through grooming?
 
Associate
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Was talking to my friend earlier about the idea of Evil and what it actually means..

I told him that there isn't an Animal on earth that is truly Evil besides human beings, he adamantly disagreed and tried to insist that cats can be Evil, because they "kill for fun".

My rebuttal that cats act purely on instinct, yes they don't always kill humanely and may play with their prey for a while before killing it, but i see that as mainly a lack of experience coupled with their inate instincts.

So what level on intelligence is actually required for Evil?

The dictionary defines Evil as "profoundly immoral and wicked."

I would suggest that true Evil is when a being knowingly inflicts suffering, mental or physical to another being whilst being fully aware of the damage it may and most likely will cause to that being or the people who care about that being.

So would it be possible for say a person with severe downs syndrome to be evil? Can they truly understand the feeling their actions may have prior to commiting said action? The same could be said for somone with severe autism.

It seems to me that Evil and malevolence are things that require a high degree of intelligence.

Bit of a pointless thread, but i thought i'd get GD's opinions.

The dictionary defines Evil as "profoundly immoral and wicked."

That is the problem right there, evil doesn't really exist other than within our own construct of morality.

If you look at today's Zoos, even our family pets, there is a moral conundrum all wrapped up in that. No matter how well intending our intent may be, the line of the animals we keep will end. Those that realise that come to the conclusion that its profoundly immoral and wicked and at the same time other people will come to the conclusion that it doesn't matter as its good for protecting endangered animals. Some never even realise.

I guess high intelligence will lead to conclusions that conflict with morality or a low intelligence will lead to not understanding morality. I guess it all comes down to crossing the moral boundaries into the immoral and being wicked is also a matter immorality.
 
Soldato
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A level of self-awareness sufficient enough to comprehend your own vulnerability and capacity to suffer, and with that understanding willfully inflict unnecessary suffering onto others.
 
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