Intel about to expand into Graphics, AMD on the rise, are the tables turning on nVidia?

[humbug]

What part of "From a purely economics perspective," don't you understand?
Of course AMD would have to agree, and there would be huge legal hoops to jump through.


You own number simply backup my point that Nvidia is significantly larger and healthier than AMD, except you mistakenly think the change in nvidia's share's have particular relevance to the discussion. Thier share value raised far too quickly on promises of short term automotive sales as well as bitcoin hype. The market simply corrected itself. Actual economic health of Nvidia is excellent, with increasing revenue, increasing profits, increasing market share and rapidly increasing revenue in new markets.

What part of "From a purely economics perspective," don't you understand?

Completely moot then given its not going to happen...

You own number simply backup my point that Nvidia is significantly larger and healthier than AMD

Well, they are currently about twice the size in monetary value, but they are in free fall while AMD goes from strength to strength, if things keep going the way they are AMD will over take nVidia in a couple of years.

nVidia are not in a good place right now, they are not landing the big money contracts, AMD are, nVidia have lost half their monetary size in a year, AMD have doubled theirs.

 

[NZXT30]

Except they are increasing market share, revenue and profits. I wouldn't call that messing up.

Nvidia's strategy in the last year has been sound. Share prices do not only reflect company policies but general market conditions. Nvidia have no control on the rise and fall of Bitcoin which lead to a corresponding rise and fall in share prices.

Mate rage 2 runs at 1080p on xbox one x and assassins creed odyssey runs at 1650p 30 fps medium settings . You're talking about some old game with extremely average graphics that got the xbox one x treatment. You're forgetting the graphical leap that will also happen with next gen. 1080p 60 fps will be the target with next gen consoles and next gen games. Next gen will have 2-3x at most from xbox one x. There is no gpu in existence or in development that can achieve 6x let alone fit on consoles.

 

[hominid]

As has been said, NVidia is notoriously hard to deal with, ask MS and Sony how bad they are. They had a huge jump start in Automotive that is now well on the wain, Tesla used to buy NVidias kit, now, iirc, they license AMD's IP. data-center is decreasing for NVidia whilst AMD is increasing massively having signed MS and Google for data-center parts.

AMD have just signed a licensing deal with Samsung worth $100M's, all these deals NVidia could have won if they tried harder or hadn't previously ruined relationships.

NVidia is in a tough spot, they are slowly getting eased out of the descrete graphic market, remember those millions of low powered cards in oem machines that are now not needed due to APU's being more than good enough. There is only the upper mid/high end left, and in the next five years Intel and AMD will have all but the highest end GPU's covered by APU's - NVidia need other markets or they could just transistion to an IP licensing company.

ARM, with MS, may save NVidia, they could, like with tegra, make machines with ARM CPU paired with NVidia IP for graphics. This is why, I think, that NVidia have been always a proprietary rather than open standards, so in the end they can license IP and API's without the need for an X86 license.

 

[D.P.]

As has been said, NVidia is notoriously hard to deal with, ask MS and Sony how bad they are. They had a huge jump start in Automotive that is now well on the wain, Tesla used to buy NVidias kit, now, iirc, they license AMD's IP. data-center is decreasing for NVidia whilst AMD is increasing massively having signed MS and Google for data-center parts.

AMD have just signed a licensing deal with Samsung worth $100M's, all these deals NVidia could have won if they tried harder or hadn't previously ruined relationships.

NVidia is in a tough spot, they are slowly getting eased out of the descrete graphic market, remember those millions of low powered cards in oem machines that are now not needed due to APU's being more than good enough. There is only the upper mid/high end left, and in the next five years Intel and AMD will have all but the highest end GPU's covered by APU's - NVidia need other markets or they could just transistion to an IP licensing company.

ARM, with MS, may save NVidia, they could, like with tegra, make machines with ARM CPU paired with NVidia IP for graphics. This is why, I think, that NVidia have been always a proprietary rather than open standards, so in the end they can license IP and API's without the need for an X86 license.

it is amazing how much false information can appear in one post. Did you ever both to research any of the humpf you have just posted.

E.g., it would take you seconds to realize how wrong you https://marketrealist.com/2019/04/how-nvidia-increased-data-center-revenue-ninefold-in-three-years/

Its data center business rose almost nine-fold from just $340 million in 2015 to $3 billion in 2018.

https://www.inverse.com/article/547...oser-as-elon-musk-says-a-i-chip-in-production

“I’m a big fan of Nvidia, they do great stuff,” Musk said during the chip’s unveiling.
...
Later that month the company confirmed to Inverse that it was still working with Tesla.

https://www.fool.com/investing/2019/03/11/amds-graphics-market-share-nears-decade-low.aspx

AMD is quickly losing ground. The company managed a unit market share of just 18.8% in the fourth quarter, with NVIDIA claiming the rest. That's down nearly 7 percentage points from the third quarter, and it's down about 15 percentage points from the prior-year period.

 

[Nasher]

As has been said, NVidia is notoriously hard to deal with, ask MS and Sony how bad they are. They had a huge jump start in Automotive that is now well on the wain, Tesla used to buy NVidias kit, now, iirc, they license AMD's IP. data-center is decreasing for NVidia whilst AMD is increasing massively having signed MS and Google for data-center parts.

AMD have just signed a licensing deal with Samsung worth $100M's, all these deals NVidia could have won if they tried harder or hadn't previously ruined relationships.

NVidia is in a tough spot, they are slowly getting eased out of the descrete graphic market, remember those millions of low powered cards in oem machines that are now not needed due to APU's being more than good enough. There is only the upper mid/high end left, and in the next five years Intel and AMD will have all but the highest end GPU's covered by APU's - NVidia need other markets or they could just transistion to an IP licensing company.

ARM, with MS, may save NVidia, they could, like with tegra, make machines with ARM CPU paired with NVidia IP for graphics. This is why, I think, that NVidia have been always a proprietary rather than open standards, so in the end they can license IP and API's without the need for an X86 license.

Apple are ditching them this year too and they have already stopped updating Nvidia drivers on MacOS. Nvidia GPU support in Linux is also pretty dead now as well, while AMD's has improved massively.

Nvidia's scope is windows gaming and some niche professional hardware, that's it. Fragile ground

Nvidia are a rich company but large corporations can plummet very quickly when things start going bad. They often hang by a thread to squeeze as much profit as possible. They need to replace that loudmouth of a CEO.

 

[humbug]

it is amazing how much false information can appear in one post. Did you ever both to research any of the humpf you have just posted.

E.g., it would take you seconds to realize how wrong you https://marketrealist.com/2019/04/how-nvidia-increased-data-center-revenue-ninefold-in-three-years/



https://www.inverse.com/article/547...oser-as-elon-musk-says-a-i-chip-in-production


https://www.fool.com/investing/2019/03/11/amds-graphics-market-share-nears-decade-low.aspx

Is that the best you can do DG?

Collectively what nVidia have achieved in the last 3 years does nothing to counter my point that they have gained nothing of big money contracts this year, AMD have those, that's one reason why nVidia are down 50% and AMD are up 100% in this same last year.

Yes nVidia will continue to be dominant in retail gaming GPU's, they have been that for years and little has changed there, its also not important when you can't land new big money contracts outside of retail gaming, that's what AMD are doing.

As for Tesla, you have to read the whole thing, your link confirms Tesla are no longer using nVidia's GPU's.
A polite thank you note is par for course when you don't renew a large contract.
And still working with Tesla, sure, an adviser or consulting position is also par for course at least when parted from said contract on friendly terms, they still need someone to make the boss a coffee.

 

[D.P.]

You just don't get hit do you?

Nvidia don't need to make contracts when their overall revenue keeps increasing. You see these bug headline alike Google will use AMD VEGA gpus etc. Nvidia are not ignored, they negotiate and set their price points. Whether and or Nvidia win such a contract is not a simple win loose situation. If AMD gains a contract where the profit margin is negative just to gain revenue and press, doesn't mean that Nvidia are loosing out. Nvidia will see the value of the contract and set a price , maybe they simply dont want to support something with zero.or negative margins, or maybe there was other confounding factors. Perhaps there was some long term support requirements that werr nit favorable, legal issues over IP, disagreemrnts over project requirements. Or maybe simple AMD had a better product. One never knows as an outsider.

With regards to Tesla, Tesla still support Nvidia and use Volta GPUs for all the training. I believe Tesla still uses a Nvidia you for the console display. What tela stopped usingvwas the drivepx2 for the ADAS stuff because they developed their own ASIC. Fixed function hardware always outperforms general purpose .
But even that total misses the point. I was responding to the erroneous statement that Nvidia a hard to work with and that is why Tesla stopped. That coudlnt be either from the truth, Nvidia and Tesla have a good relationship. Simply Tesla developed their own hardware so no longer needs the Nvidia drivepx2

 

[hominid]

I didn't say Tesla, I said NVidia was hard to work with, that was MS and Sony! Yes margins are slim on consoles, but when you are selling 20 million per year for each company, Sony and MS, it add up to a nice chunk that is worth it.

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/article_45859 (best I could find atm)

Tesla stopped using NVidia and licensed IP because it was a lot cheaper than buying PX boards from NVidia - simple economics.

Yes NVidia, at the moment, are doing ok, I think the share price going down is partly due to their outlook in the future. They will be ok for the next few years but after that, 5 or 6 years, unless something unforeseeable happens, they will be in a tight spot with only high end gamers and data-center accelerators.

You can be defensive all you like but that's just how it is, the share price doesn't lie. Back when AMD had nothing but Bulldozer CPU's and rx480's, not sure on the GPU's at that time, their share price was ~$2, now it's ~$30 - a 15x increase, meanwhile NVidia has halved. Yes NVidia is still a massive company and IS profitable, that can change quite fast when you aren't winning big contracts and your traditional markets are drying up. This is where AMD are doing much better than NVidia at the moment, they are doing custom IC's with MS/Sony/Google/others and licensing IP to china, iffy I know, and now Samsung and others. To the casual outsider it looks very much like AMD are in the ascendancy, they have finally got a superior part with their CPU's, GPU's are treading water at best but are sure to now be getting better funding now that Ryzen is profitable. These things take years to plan and execute, it took AMD 5 years to recover from Bulldozer, now they are doing well on CPU's they can try to sort out the GPU's - again, it takes years to turn things around.

 

[Phixsator]

but it doesn't challenge the performance of a 2080Ti unfortunately, when AMD do that I'll take notice.

Good that they are pushing past Intel, tbh its Zen3 that has my interest.

I don't know about anyone else but I personally feel Intel and Nvidia have been sand bagging for years whilst asking for a price premium, that combination leaves a bad taste in the mouths of consumers.

Is that because you are going to be buying 2080ti performance(or better) or because you are under the illusion like so many that whoever has the fastest GPU on the market is the best brand? if it is the first then it makes sense.

 

[Gerard]

Wtf is a "humpf"

 

[Poneros]

Mate rage 2 runs at 1080p on xbox one x and assassins creed odyssey runs at 1650p 30 fps medium settings . You're talking about some old game with extremely average graphics that got the xbox one x treatment. You're forgetting the graphical leap that will also happen with next gen. 1080p 60 fps will be the target with next gen consoles and next gen games. Next gen will have 2-3x at most from xbox one x. There is no gpu in existence or in development that can achieve 6x let alone fit on consoles.

Funny you should mention Rage 2, because I tested that simulating a kind of PS5 like setup (mine, V64 + 6800k), and got 50ish FPS (4K high). You're telling me they wouldn't be able to close a 10 fps gap if they developed straight for such a system? Odyssey is a special case, and held back by an older engine w/ a specific target 30 fps due to the console's weaker CPU. This is clear from tests on PC as well, where even with a 9900K you'll struggle to keep steady 60 - it's a software issue. Besides, you can't discount Halo 5 then use another example because you like how it suits your argument better. You gotta accept both. I am perfectly willing to concede that some games will be unoptimised & fail at reaching 60, but 90% of AA-AAA won't, and certainly all first party titles WILL.

 

[ANDREW GREEN]

X1X does 4K 30 in most titles. You don't think they'll top that?

First party titles will without a doubt crush that. Hell, look at what they manage with Halo 5! 95% of the time stays in 4K and 60 fps, very rare drops. Next gen will have a 6x more powerful CPU, state of the art SSD, all sorts of graphical advances & likely no less than a V56 worth of GPU grunt. I can't believe anyone's even doubting this.

I think the graphics engines will get more demanding to the extent that no it won't be able to maintain 4k @ 60fps

PS5 games have to look better than XB1 games

 

[Psycho Sonny]

but it doesn't challenge the performance of a 2080Ti unfortunately, when AMD do that I'll take notice.

Good that they are pushing past Intel, tbh its Zen3 that has my interest.

I don't know about anyone else but I personally feel Intel and Nvidia have been sand bagging for years whilst asking for a price premium, that combination leaves a bad taste in the mouths of consumers.

it doesn't need to. when AMD can launch a card as powerful as a 1080ti or more for £300 (new) then i will take notice. until then my 1080 will suffice.

my next card will likely be a 4060.

 

[LoadsaMoney]

Just been watching the Stadia stream, £120 for The Founders Edition (apt name ), then you have to buy games, and then pay £9 a month, just to play the ******* things, if you want to play em at higher than 1080p PMSL!

 

[Spyhop]

Just been watching the Stadia stream, £120 for The Founders Edition (apt name ), then you have to buy games, and then pay £9 a month, just to play the ******* things, if you want to play em at higher than 1080p PMSL!

I would rather never play games again than do poverty grade remote-data-centre gaming. Never mind the input lag, you will simply never see the game the way it's meant to look, because every single frame is mush due to being lossy compressed.

 

[BigBANGtheory]

it doesn't need to. when AMD can launch a card as powerful as a 1080ti or more for £300 (new) then i will take notice. until then my 1080 will suffice.

my next card will likely be a 4060.

but why on earth would you upgrade from a 1080 to an AMD "1080ti like performance" that makes no sense even if it was like £200, what you need is a 1080 @ 200% for £400 and that product does not exist. There is literally no upgrade path for a 980ti or 1080 atm AMD has not changed that and Nvidia wants to palm you off on Turing which is really pascal+30% with smoke & mirrors instead of volta.

 

[humbug]

Its doesn't work like that , For one AMD would have to agree to a Buyout, nVidia can't just say to AMD here is some cash we own you now, if AMD don't want to sell then nVidia can go and stick it up them.

The other problem nVidia have is their current worth is $87bn and falling to AMD's $32bn and rising, its going to be extremely difficult to convince investors to stump up what will probably be near $40bn by the end of this year, half what nVidia are worth when they have lost half their value in less than a year, nVidia are not doing well, not well at all. Gigantic debts like that would kill them off.

AMD now worth $34.5bn and rising....

 

[Psycho Sonny]

but why on earth would you upgrade from a 1080 to an AMD "1080ti like performance" that makes no sense even if it was like £200, what you need is a 1080 @ 200% for £400 and that product does not exist. There is literally no upgrade path for a 980ti or 1080 atm AMD has not changed that and Nvidia wants to palm you off on Turing which is really pascal+30% with smoke & mirrors instead of volta.

which is why i won't upgrade for like 2-3 generations.

£300 is the max I'm willing to pay for a GPU. also i need the power as i'm struggling for fps on apex legends.

ideally i should dial down the settings and i might try that tonight.

 

[4K8KW10]

We will see where nvidia will be starting from next year.

The first Intel Xe GPU has completed initial testing and dev kits are out in the wild
https://www.pcgamesn.com/intel/xe-gpu-dg1-power-on-exit-important-milestone

 

[StriderX]

I wonder how Intel's drivers will be on such a new product? I guess technically it's just upscaling the iGPU from the CPU's, but surely they'd now need more focus from Devs?