17 year old girl allowed to kill herself Legally

Soldato
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What some of us have said is that many of the methods for suicide are lacking dignity, and would result in trauma for (eg) paramedics, train drivers, random members of the public.

Not to mention many methods result in failure leaving the person in a worse state and other methods pose danger to others (carbon monoxide suicide is quite effective, but deadly to others too)

Is it so wrong to want a painless, effective and least "mess other peoples days up" method for suicide ?
 
Caporegime
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I can't believe that last part. Wow
No that is not the only alternative. Perhaps forced feeding for a while through drip, eventually limit it and give her other options. But it seems she has been failed before this. To get into such a position in the first place, I do blame parents tbh.

If you are religious I can see your perspective.
Otherwise I cannot understand why you seem so intent on keeping someone alive who genuinely wants to die.

What if you were locked in solitary confinement and someone and you believed you were never getting out. You wanted to end your life but someone said.. No. You have 80 years of this left?
Its not their decision to make
 

B&W

B&W

Soldato
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If you are religious I can see your perspective.
Otherwise I cannot understand why you seem so intent on keeping someone alive who genuinely wants to die.

What if you were locked in solitary confinement and someone and you believed you were never getting out. You wanted to end your life but someone said.. No. You have 80 years of this left?
Its not their decision to make

Not religious, I don't believe someone should kill themselves due to severe depression and PTSD.

There are options, and as always time heals.

Over time, people change they're feelings change, life is not static.
 
Caporegime
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Does time heal cancer, pretty sure it kills you if you leave it unattended and if it's inoperable, you're just waiting for death. Why can't Mental illnesses be as severe?
 
Soldato
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Having watched a program last night on care homes for the old. There's no chance I'm going to become a bed ridden, pant staining useless lump of human tissue. Bring in the voluntary harmless suicide I say.
 

B&W

B&W

Soldato
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I've seen first hand, time in fact do the opposite, especially where medicated.

So as a result, you can suffer for longer with a serious mental illness, but it's okay because you'll not die of it?

There is always hope, this is what it is to be human even at your darkest hour there is hope.

She was 17 for god's sake, not fully developed mentally as an adult. At that age people make so much mistakes, they should not be allowed to make this fatal mistake.
 
Soldato
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There should be barriers in place to prevent these kind of things. If all else fails they could mandate that the person must have enough money to fund cryogenic freezing. When a cure for their problem becomes available and it's possible to resuscitate, then they must be brought back to life.
 

mjt

mjt

Soldato
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What kind of nonsense is "their body so it's up to them"?

She is 17 years old, she is a child despite legally 16 being seen as adulthood due to the onset of puberty it does not mean one has all the experience or knowledge to be able to make such a decision.

My stance is she needed help/support and the lack of that help is the real problem here.

You should help others who are suffering, not legalise there death and eliminate them from society.

To me this is just as bad as the Nazis euthanising (through painless means they thought it was ok too) they deemed not fit for society.
Are you seriously suggesting that Aktion T4 is comparable to the current euthanasia process currently legal in Benelux? It is EXTREMELY tightly regulated and, for want of a better word, difficult to euthanise patients in these countries. Doctors and other medical professionals can be prosecuted if they do not follow the very strict procedures.

Please educate yourself before posting such offensive comments in future.
 
Commissario
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There is always hope, this is what it is to be human even at your darkest hour there is hope.

She was 17 for god's sake, not fully developed mentally as an adult. At that age people make so much mistakes, they should not be allowed to make this fatal mistake.
So how long do you propose they should have tied her down, and force fed her against her will?

5 years?
10 years?
25 years?

As that's what it would effectively have taken and even if she ever appeared to have changed her mind, how do you know that the moment she was given a couple of minutes alone she wouldn't have used another method? (run in front of a bus on a court visit, jumped off a balcony, cut her wrists with broken glass the list is almost endless).

She wasn't someone taking pills or jumping off a bridge on the spur of the moment, she was sadly someone who had obviously had treatment for years but still felt the same way and the only way to stop her would have involved a complete deprivation of liberty bodily autonomy (worse than almost all criminals) potentially for the rest of her life in which time she would still be suffering, which is to put it bluntly pretty ******* inhumane.

She was someone who was clear in her mind what she wanted, able to argue for it, and in the end took a very slow way to do it when other options were denied her and the only way left was to refuse to allow things into her body.

I believe in trying to save people when possible and if possible prolong life, but not at all costs and not when the person is lucid enough to make their wishes clear and any other option would be against their will and effectively torture.
You appear to have a very simplistic view that life should be preserved regardless of the persons long term and argued for wishes and suffering.
 
Soldato
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Why is it so ridiculous? Ok, fair enough the nazis forced euthanasia and sterilisation and this is voluntary euthanasia so there is difference.

But the moral behind the euthanasia is still the same, that the person isn't fit for life.

I have been through depression as a teenager, so I know how it feels actually before you get on your moral high horse. Right now, I am happy in life and if I had done something silly at a young age I wouldn't have appreciated this happiness. Not to mention the harm on family it would have had.

It was an anecdote that somethings can motivate people to loose that depression and give some "meaning" to that individual's life.

So you would rather die then avenge the death of your loved ones? That speaks volumes about you and your morals.

I do not know how it feels like nor will I even pretend but I put it at the top of the worst crimes along with murder (the rapist should be castrated IMO and jailed significantly).

Unfortunately your ex still suffered from it, but I do believe many people have lived happy and fulfilling lifes inspite of rape.

See how you are forcing your opinions on others now?

At least what I believe does not sanction death for depressed teenagers. To me it is another example of the failure of modern society to integrate young vulnerable people into society and how "freedom of choice" is being exploited to perverse ends.

Euthanasia doesn't mean that at all. It means that the person wants to end their life, not that they aren't fit for life.

Good I'm glad you're happy but not everyone is the same, she isn't just suffering from depression is she. None of us have walked in her shoes so have zero idea how she feels.

I would rather die that have my parents murdered just so I could have some meaning to life, that meaning being revenge. Thanks but no thanks.

What happens to to the rapist is irrelevant here. This is about the girl not him. As you say you have no idea what it feels like so stop judging her and her situation.

Yes some people will live satisfying lives despite being raped but lots of others won't.

That last paragraph makes no sense in regards to this story. This has nothing to do with young people being integrated into society, what does that even mean? You sound like my grandparents talking about my generation when I was a teenager 30 years ago. The same thing every generation seems to say about the generations that follow them. Freedom of choice is never a bad thing. They just have a different way of seeing things in the Netherlands. Who are we too judge them. And she wasn't just "depressed", she was in constant physical and psychological pain.
 

B&W

B&W

Soldato
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So how long do you propose they should have tied her down, and force fed her against her will?

5 years?
10 years?
25 years?

As that's what it would effectively have taken and even if she ever appeared to have changed her mind, how do you know that the moment she was given a couple of minutes alone she wouldn't have used another method? (run in front of a bus on a court visit, jumped off a balcony, cut her wrists with broken glass the list is almost endless).

She wasn't someone taking pills or jumping off a bridge on the spur of the moment, she was sadly someone who had obviously had treatment for years but still felt the same way and the only way to stop her would have involved a complete deprivation of liberty bodily autonomy (worse than almost all criminals) potentially for the rest of her life in which time she would still be suffering, which is to put it bluntly pretty ******* inhumane.

She was someone who was clear in her mind what she wanted, able to argue for it, and in the end took a very slow way to do it when other options were denied her and the only way left was to refuse to allow things into her body.

I believe in trying to save people when possible and if possible prolong life, but not at all costs and not when the person is lucid enough to make their wishes clear and any other option would be against their will and effectively torture.
You appear to have a very simplistic view that life should be preserved regardless of the persons long term and argued for wishes and suffering.

She had been on the drip before and recovered from it, so it's not like she will be physically held down for years. Depression has phases.

Clear in her mind for a 17 year old girl who puts on her bucket list "ride a scooter" , "get a tattoo", etc. Not really mature is she then?

As depression is increasing in our society this sets a dangerous example of things to come.

The real question is why is it increasing so much, what is happening in society?
 
Caporegime
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She had been on the drip before and recovered from it, so it's not like she will be physically held down for years. Depression has phases.

Clear in her mind for a 17 year old girl who puts on her bucket list "ride a scooter" , "get a tattoo", etc. Not really mature is she then?

As depression is increasing in our society this sets a dangerous example of things to come.

The real question is why is it increasing so much, what is happening in society?
The cause was known. Trauma from being raped. Trauma she could not overcome.

You seem to be arguing for a one-size-fits-all approach to mental illness.
 
Caporegime
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If someone cut of your head, is that trauma that can be managed? or is that simply obviously irreparable.

I keep feeling people are downplaying how awful sexual abuse is, especially at the age of puberty which defines every other event in your life, her very being was irreparable as far as she was concerned.
 
Soldato
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Her believing it was trauma she couldn't overcome doesn't necessarily mean she couldn't give enough time, in 5 years she might have been able to cope better, in 15 or 20 years she might have had a family and a new life. That opportunity is gone now for her so we'll never know.
 
Soldato
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If someone cut of your head, is that trauma that can be managed? or is that simply obviously irreparable.

I keep feeling people are downplaying how awful sexual abuse is, especially at the age of puberty which defines every other event in your life, her very being was irreparable as far as she was concerned.

I know many people who have suffered the same and have been able to live normal healthy lives - it takes a long time and its not easy but it can be done, and it has been done and is continuing to be done by millions of people.
 
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