Need AM4 cooling - air or AIO?

[strumpusplunket]

I am using the stock cooler with my 2600X and it's been reasonably okay until this week. I was planning to upgrade the cooler at some point, but a few days ago I had a thermal shutdown during Pillars of Eternity 2 (!!), so I think that point might be now!

It was a bit surprising, but monitoring temps in that game, every session sees max temps up in the mid-80s, and obviously one scene with lots of enemies, effects and sigilis pushed it over the thermal edge. Not good.

So, what is the best option for AM4 cooling - an AIO or a traditional air cooler. I've never used anything but air coolers in the past, but I gather the AIOs have come along some in recent years.

I (think I) know the pros and cons of each and still can't decide.

It seems air coolers are still cheaper, still perform pretty much as well as AIOs, are longer-lasting, but the good ones are huge and heavy and at max speeds can get noisy.

I gather AIOs are generally quieter at load, but perhaps louder at idle due to pump noise (is this right?), it seems they are easier to fit and you don't have to worry about 1.5kg of metal hanging off your motherboard when you move your PC, but they're more expensive, unlikely to last as long and pumps are prone to failure - and there's still the possibility of leaks.

Is that about the size of it? Any recent developments that are noteworthy?

With air coolers it looks like the options are fairly straightforward and haven't changed in years - a huge Noctua or BeQuiet cooler likely the best options. With AIOs, though, there now seem to be dozens! So many it would take days to even begin to get a handle on the relative merits of each. Am I outdated to still be worrying about a pump failure leading to heat death of my CPU or leaks destroying my system?

So - what say the OcUK forums? AIOs worth the extra? If so, which ones? Or is a NH-D15 for around £70ish still the best option?

 

[alexakasloth]

I would ask if you require the best air cooler such as the NH D15 or would a mid range air cooler suffice? There's many options for air coolers with 6 heatpipes and a good fin structure that would cool a 95w CPU well, this would make a good upgrade from the ally block you're currently using.

 

[strumpusplunket]

I would ask if you require the best air cooler such as the NH D15 or would a mid range air cooler suffice? There's many options for air coolers with 6 heatpipes and a good fin structure that would cool a 95w CPU well, this would make a good upgrade from the ally block you're currently using.

I have asked myself the same question. I think the Zen+ CPUs are okay with mid-range coolers, but I am planning to upgrade to Zen2 at some point and I'd like to get the best performance from the boosts, so I don't know if for those chips with their higher core-counts I might be best getting a top-end cooler now.

 

[Unseul]

What case do you have? What intake fans do you have? What exhaust fans? Have you removed pci slots?

What did your internal air temps (if you can check them) look like over a gaming session.

 

[EsaT]

...but the good ones are huge and heavy and at max speeds can get noisy.

I gather AIOs are generally quieter at load

Regardless of what marketing hype says laws of the physics haven't changed any.
Typically smaller than 360mm rads are sweating badly to match high end heatpipe coolers.
And it's actually waterpipe coolers which often come with super fast 2k RPM class turbines.
Which would bumb up also performance of high end heatpipe coolers for getting nice marketing numbers.

Heat capacity of water just slows down temperature rise and easily masks real cooling per noise performance in short term load spikes.
Though even that shorter term load cooling per noise performance comparison is avoided by most "reviewers".
Or comparison points are some stock mediocrities instead of high end heatpipe coolers.


And for 2600X there's zero sense in any super expensive cooler.
Scythe Mugen 5 is only step behind the best heatpipe coolers and has full DIMM/PCIe clearance.
https://www.overclockers.co.uk/scythe-scmg-5100-mugen-5-rev.b-cpu-cooler-hs-046-sy.html
Even RGB bling bling version is reasonably priced.

Here's Corsair's check all fads marketing hype waterpipe cooler struggling to keep up with it in cooling per noise.
With either temperature or noise being worser with overclocked CPU:
https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/8...platinum-liquid-cpu-cooler-review/index6.html

 

[Unseul]

Thermalright aro m14 is a very good cooler, close to the very best air and made for am4 bracket. Around 45gbp but limited suppliers here. Very quiet too.

I suspect lots of people see improvement with aio not because it's any better than good air, but a) heat capacity of the water and b) the radiator adds more intake/exhaust to the system, which would have helped an air cooler too.

 

[doyll]

Lots of good replies. As long as your case is flowing air like it should (most case out of the box do not) a good air cooler is best way to go .. best price, best life expectancy, and equally good performing to CLCs.

AIOs are almost all CLCs (CLCs are a sub group of AIO). AIOs have threaded fitting, copper radiator, fill port, etc. CLCs do not. That said, even the best AIOs are only a little better than top tier air coolers when case airflow is setup properly. Below is link to how airflow works and how to optimize case airflow.
https://forums.overclockers.co.uk/posts/30354296/

 

[Ross Thomson]

The cost of current AIO's have rocketed and not worth while any more. I would look into the airflow in the case if you are getting such high temps.

 

[strumpusplunket]

What case do you have? What intake fans do you have? What exhaust fans? Have you removed pci slots?

What did your internal air temps (if you can check them) look like over a gaming session.

I haven't checked my internal temps actually. I have a Phanteks Enthoo M case, with stock exhaust fan and a 140mm Scythe as front intake. I think this should take care of airflow reasonably well?

Regardless of what marketing hype says laws of the physics haven't changed any.
Typically smaller than 360mm rads are sweating badly to match high end heatpipe coolers.
And it's actually waterpipe coolers which often come with super fast 2k RPM class turbines.
Which would bumb up also performance of high end heatpipe coolers for getting nice marketing numbers.

Heat capacity of water just slows down temperature rise and easily masks real cooling per noise performance in short term load spikes.
Though even that shorter term load cooling per noise performance comparison is avoided by most "reviewers".
Or comparison points are some stock mediocrities instead of high end heatpipe coolers.


And for 2600X there's zero sense in any super expensive cooler.
Scythe Mugen 5 is only step behind the best heatpipe coolers and has full DIMM/PCIe clearance.
https://www.overclockers.co.uk/scythe-scmg-5100-mugen-5-rev.b-cpu-cooler-hs-046-sy.html
Even RGB bling bling version is reasonably priced.

Here's Corsair's check all fads marketing hype waterpipe cooler struggling to keep up with it in cooling per noise.
With either temperature or noise being worser with overclocked CPU:
https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/8...platinum-liquid-cpu-cooler-review/index6.html

Yes, what you say makes good sense. So I was maybe right to be a bit suspicious of the AIO hype, but perhaps not for all the right reasons...

I had thought that something like an NH-D15 might be overkill for a 2600X, but probably around Christmas as I go through another round of family PC upgrades/hand-me-downs, I'll pass this chip onto one of the kids and grab myself a 3700X or 3800X, so I'm thinking ahead as well. Whatever cooler I buy now I'd like to be confident will cool one of those chips too and let it do its XFR thing to the max of its capabilities.

Does that change anything, or perhaps it's too early to say?

I'll check out the Scythe Mugen anyway. Been ages since I had a Scythe cooler. Last one was a Zippang on my Q6600 I think, and it was a bit rubbish if I recall. I have heard some positive things about them more recently, so I'll have a look.

 

[EsaT]

I had thought that something like an NH-D15 might be overkill for a 2600X, but probably around Christmas as I go through another round of family PC upgrades/hand-me-downs, I'll pass this chip onto one of the kids and grab myself a 3700X or 3800X, so I'm thinking ahead as well. Whatever cooler I buy now I'd like to be confident will cool one of those chips too and let it do its XFR thing to the max of its capabilities.

NH-D15 is certainly overkill for 2600X.
And with loose fin spacing dual fin stacks and two fans really huge, pretty much blocking access to whole upper end of motherboard.
(+weighting lot and expensive)

Mugen 5 is also in that overkill level.
With performancy likely capped by single only 1200rpm fan aimed for low noise.
Its mid dense fin stack has lots of surface area, so higher speed fan or two (extra fan clips included) would likely squeeze decent amount more cooling performance.
Arctic P12 should work really well as good design for overcoming airflow impedance.
And with ridiculously low 2.8V start up voltage would certainly scale well for slow and quiet idle/desktop speed while having also performance for heavy load.
(if allowed to go full speed)

3800X's 10W higher TDP than in 2600X wouldn't make much difference.
Mugen 5 is designed to be able to dissipate clearly higher heat output.

Because of myself wanting to avoid exactly that heaviest weight and bad clearances/blocking access to whole upper motherboard have had Mugen 5 for two months waiting for Zen2 Ryzens.
(availability was horribly bad here in Finland for long time, so grabbed one when shop got first stock in many months)

 

[strumpusplunket]

NH-D15 is certainly overkill for 2600X.
And with loose fin spacing dual fin stacks and two fans really huge, pretty much blocking access to whole upper end of motherboard.
(+weighting lot and expensive)

Mugen 5 is also in that overkill level.
With performancy likely capped by single only 1200rpm fan aimed for low noise.
Its mid dense fin stack has lots of surface area, so higher speed fan or two (extra fan clips included) would likely squeeze decent amount more cooling performance.
Arctic P12 should work really well as good design for overcoming airflow impedance.
And with ridiculously low 2.8V start up voltage would certainly scale well for slow and quiet idle/desktop speed while having also performance for heavy load.
(if allowed to go full speed)

3800X's 10W higher TDP than in 2600X wouldn't make much difference.
Mugen 5 is designed to be able to dissipate clearly higher heat output.

Because of myself wanting to avoid exactly that heaviest weight and bad clearances/blocking access to whole upper motherboard have had Mugen 5 for two months waiting for Zen2 Ryzens.
(availability was horribly bad here in Finland for long time, so grabbed one when shop got first stock in many months)

Ok, so that sounds good. Mugen 5 is cheaper as well.

Just noticed the Dark Rock 4 is even cheaper, though, and a similar weight...

 

[doyll]

A very good low cost cooler is Alpenfohn Matterhorn Pure
https://www.overclockers.co.uk/alpenfohn-matterhorn-pure-edition-cpu-cooler-120mm-hs-037-al.html

 

[Unseul]

Anyone ever heard of a board breaking from the weight of a cooler?

The big ones can block ram/pci etc, but that's why Doyll asked about the MB, since he measures them all up and can tell you if it'll block anything.

 

[strumpusplunket]

Anyone ever heard of a board breaking from the weight of a cooler?

The big ones can block ram/pci etc, but that's why Doyll asked about the MB, since he measures them all up and can tell you if it'll block anything.

I've heard people report noticable flex in the motherboard and sag in the cooler mounting, but breaking? No I don't believe this is actually something that happens with any frequency worth noting.

But bascially I'd prefer to grab the lightest, quietest abd best VFM cooler that will meet my needs. If I don't need a 1.5kg block of metal hanging off my motherboard to meet my cooling requirements I'd rather not have one

Now that this thread has steered me firmly in the direction of air coolers again, I'm just after one that will reliably cool a 3800X at high boost clocks with as little noice as possible. It seems people are suggesting the mega-coolers like the NH-D15 or the Dark Rock Pro series are just not needed, so if that is the case it would be good to get something cheaper, smaller and lighter. I like the look of both the Scythe Mugen 5 and the Dark Rock 4 now, and both are £25 or so cheaper than the big Noctua.

 

[Unseul]

People were saying that for your 2600x, who knows about the 3800x. It may only report 10w more but when working hard and ramping up I'd be surprised if it couldn't warm things up more.

I'd still suggest looking at the aro m14. It's AM4, weighs the same as the mugen, costs the same, 140mm fan that's very quiet and effective. It is very large and wide spaced fins, as it was based on a passive cooler i believe. Means it runs virtually silently when not under significant load, and then when under load is probably quieter than case fans. Decry reports have it only 2-3c warmer than the noctua but quieter.

I'd have thought another good 140mm fan inn the front would be useful? Think overclockers still have a great deal on pairs of 140mp fans from phanteks which have very good pressure ratings.

 

[strumpusplunket]

People were saying that for your 2600x, who knows about the 3800x. It may only report 10w more but when working hard and ramping up I'd be surprised if it couldn't warm things up more.

I'd still suggest looking at the aro m14. It's AM4, weighs the same as the mugen, costs the same, 140mm fan that's very quiet and effective. It is very large and wide spaced fins, as it was based on a passive cooler i believe. Means it runs virtually silently when not under significant load, and then when under load is probably quieter than case fans. Decry reports have it only 2-3c warmer than the noctua but quieter.

I'd have thought another good 140mm fan inn the front would be useful? Think overclockers still have a great deal on pairs of 140mp fans from phanteks which have very good pressure ratings.

Thanks, I'll have a look at the Aro too. It sounds good if it's only a couple of degrees warmer than the Noctua in tests, though.

Also - yes, case cooling was something else on my list to sort out. I was leaving all this until Zen2 originally as I was not planning to push this Zen+ chip very hard and basically have it as a stop-gap until later this year. This whole issue with crazy thermals on the stock cooler has kind of brought things to a heard earlier than I'd planned. I did have a couple of 140mm Silentwings fans on my shopping list too...

 

[EsaT]

Thanks, I'll have a look at the Aro too. It sounds good if it's only a couple of degrees warmer than the Noctua in tests, though.

Also - yes, case cooling was something else on my list to sort out. I was leaving all this until Zen2 originally as I was not planning to push this Zen+ chip very hard and basically have it as a stop-gap until later this year. This whole issue with crazy thermals on the stock cooler has kind of brought things to a heard earlier than I'd planned. I did have a couple of 140mm Silentwings fans on my shopping list too...

While very loose fin spacing is good for passive cooling/very low fan speeds that makes cooler's dimensions huge (for actually tiny bit lighter cooler than Mugen 5) eating working space around CPU.
And like BeQuiets also ARO-M14/HR-02 Macho Rev B have "hard" mounting without spring loaded screws, if wanting to maximize safety:
https://www.hardocp.com/image/MTUzODIzMzg0MGNsa29kbjJrcHhfMl8yMF9sLmpwZw==

Scythe actually changed to (Noctua style) spring loaded screws when there were those cases of some bent Skylake CPUs.
Ironically with waterpipe cooler block in this case:
https://www.pcgamer.com/intel-skylake-cpus-are-bending-under-the-pressure-of-some-coolers/
Besides giving easier way to limit general pressure, springs also soften forces from any bumps during moving PC.
For the money Scythe has darn good package with also good no shortcuts mounting system.

Of course height is also another factor:
Higher cooler has longer lever for that weight to cause bending stresses.
Bigger fans also add more weight and farther from support.


Already Mugen 5 would improve CPU cooling huge amount from that sized for light CPU load stock coolers.
But of course any decrease in ambient inside case helps.
In fact for fixed CPU fan speed and CPU heat output case temperature changes would translate 1:1 into CPU temperature.
So what case do you have?

Arctic P12/P14 would be performance for buck general purpose fan with design good for heatsinks and obstructions like stamped meshes/filters.
https://www.overclockers.co.uk/search?sSearch=Arctic+P12
And design is lot better for sound profile than some lot more expensive marketing hype brand fans.
Price or marketing hype just doesn't translate to anything absolutely sure.
Dozen years ago Arctic price level Scythe SlipStreams were one of the tops fans in SilentPCReview.
And Arctic's basic warranty is 6 years and 10 years for PWM versions vs. lot shorter for expensive hype brands.

 

[doyll]

Kinda hi-jacking with this reply to what EsaT said about Skylake, but all that socket damage because of thinner CPU PCB was nothing but scaremongering and was pretty well refuted by PCGH testers in video link below. It shows them throwing around a build and running Skylake in shipping box .. even throwing box over his head to land on concrete floor.
To see just the boxed abuse jump into 3:35.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XByL6tRPSBM&t=2s

I think their 'testing' pretty well shows the Skylake is just as strong as older CPU. Also, Intel is still using the thinner CPU PCB and nobody is trying to claim they are not strong enough/flexing and damaging anything.

 

[strumpusplunket]

Given the prices of the Scythe cooler and P14 fans discussed here - £42 for the Mugen 5! £12 for a couple of 140mm Antec fans! - it's really hard to look past both as the ideal solution.

And it will have saved me around £75 from the fans I was looking at and the NH-D15 (and even more from a an AIO cooler).

Very glad I asked!

Cheers guys.

 

[alexakasloth]

I can confirm that the Raijintek Ereboss has good clearance, I'm very pleased with it.

Spoiler: Images

45mm clearance from the top of the RAM bracket: