Petition to sack Chris Packham from BBC

Soldato
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I also heard somebody talking about Turkey farms in the US recently, and how they have been genetically selecting the dumbest turkeys to breed from over many years, so humans are literally making animals dumber.
To be fair, it could be argued we're doing the same with the human race by encouraging the feckless workshy masses into breeding, with the reward of free housing and other benefits.

Ever seen the film Idiocracy? They were waaayyy too conservative with their timelines in that movie.
 
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Soldato
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Engineered meat will drive out the poverty section of meat rearing, thankfully, wont take too long.
Honestly ultimately I do think eventually we will have to stop eating meat it is just to environmentally costly. I also believe in time it won't even be that big a deal (chocolate is also quite bad).
However we are not there yet and until it happens I am afraid I won't give up my meat. (If I had to choose between giving up sausages and bacon OR beer it would be a hard choice . That said conversely to many here I feel I am being more environmentally savvy eating any wild stuff my dad shoots not less
 
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Sadly the actual reality of the excessive damage corvids do is never really thought about or even seen by those who just assume pest-control is an excuse for a good bit of blood lust rather than a necessary service which allows people to buy farm food in the UK.

Exactly. The nay-sayers have absolutely no clue about the reality of the corvid, pigeon, rat, rabbit, grey squirrel and fox problem in the UK. I was no different 10 years ago, so I understand why they feel the way they do. But exposed to the harsh reality, my outlook changed very quickly.

Of course nobody would ever shoot anything for fun and fun alone. Nobody is saying that. Of course millions of people hunt for pleasure. Nobody disagrees with you, nor said anything to the contrary.

Of course those farmers don't give their kids air rifles and let them loose to shoot whatever they can find. Some do, some don't.

Of course they don't grow up believing the countryside is their playground and "townies" should just shut up and let them slaughter whatever they feel like. I don't think farmers think the countryside is their playground. It's their workplace. I think they take umbrage with "townies" telling them how to run their businesses.

Of course we didn't have a news items recently showing a hunt group (countryside alliance, farmers, etc) using live foxes to train their hounds to kill. Link? Seems a bit vague that you have mixed up farmers with a hunt group. I know farmers that will not allow hunts on their land, despite historic precedence.

Of course none of it is for pleasure, ahem I mean "sport". No way. Again,of course it is, for some. For others, it's just work / conservation. Don't you own a cat? The non-indigenous predator that shares some very rarefied air with a small, select group of animals, including ourselves, that hunt for sport and surplus kill? You seemingly have an intense distaste for killing for pleasure yet you house, feed and release your surplus killing predator on voles, song birds etc. Have you chosen to keep this animal for your own pleasure?

It's especially funny that some of us think we're "good people", despite all of us having a massively damaging effect on our planet and not really caring to do anything about it.

I agree with some of your sentiments regarding how destructive we are, as a whole. However, I do care and I do something about it. In the last 3 years, we have built beetle banks, planted winter cover crops, sown wild flower meadows, plots for skylarks and lapwing and helped encourage two water meadows. So yes, I do care and have done something about it.


The serious answer is that you re-introduce the predators that would naturally balance the populations.

Only the farmers don't want them, either.

Basically farmers want to be the ultimate predators with power over life and death; only when they kill they just pile the bodies up and let them rot. Unlike predators which for the most part hunt to survive.

You have a massive issue it seems with both over generalisation and farmers. You must be buying your groceries through gritted teeth.

You have ignored previous questions in this thread, but you have made a statement so perhaps you could back it up? You said previously "I'm forced to watch Countryfile every week so I'm quite well versed on the madness of farmers and their various bodies". Is this your full experience of the countryside? Do you actually think the gentrified Countryfile is a representation of farming or country life in the UK? Using your knowledge gleaned, please tell me how you control rats, rabbits, corvids, foxes and wood pigeons with re-introduced natural predators...

Nature doesn't necessarily balance itself. Sometimes we need to give it a helping hand to undo the mess we've already created.

Exactly. The issue with wood pigeons has nothing to do with natural predators. It's to do with demand. Crop size increases to feed demand. More crops, more pigeons. It really is that simple. Want the wood pigeon population to drop from 12 million to a sustainable 3 million? Reduce your consumption. Nobody wants to see the end of the wood pigeon. Farmers, in general, account for yield loss, have done for centuries. But what we have now in some parts of the country is bordering on plague-like levels.

Thank you. Please do not post it.

Of course. It is a shame though that the harsh reality of how this all works is hidden to a large percentage of the population.
 
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For those that are hand-twisting about shooting crows, foxes and the re-introduction of the three general licenses....genuinely interested on your thoughts about the RSPB shooting crows and foxes, to, you know, umm... conserve other species:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/08/08/rspb-members-protest-controversial-crow-cull/

Has the RSPB (edit, that will be the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds, the largest of any of our UK conservation groups), of whom Packham is the vice-president, become blood-thirsty pleasure hunters? If not, how are people who cull/kill for the exact same reasons on their land not lauded for conservation like the RSPB? Why have the incredibly well funded RSPB not found a viable alternative to shooting foxes and crows?

I guess what we could do is forget about stewardship, management and responsibility and blame people on internet forums for shooting the same birds that the RSPB do, to make their completely blinkered selves feel better that they have done sweet nothing apart from sit on their fat, lazy derriere.
 
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Caporegime
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Because the farmers moan about re-introducing natural predators and that conservation requires population control in lieu of them?

We're the cause of these pests total lack of predators in the first place and the cause of their demise because we somehow find slaughtering animals necessary, it's not a difficult situation to understand. It's all self-inflicted misery.

My own thoughts on this is that technology and sentiment will resolve this one way or another.
 
Soldato
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Because the farmers moan about re-introducing natural predators and that conservation requires population control in lieu of them?

We're the cause of these pests total lack of predators in the first place and the cause of their demise because we somehow find slaughtering animals necessary, it's not a difficult situation to understand. It's all self-inflicted misery.

My own thoughts on this is that technology and sentiment will resolve this one way or another.
Hypothetically would you be happy to pay tho? It's all well and good talking ideals (there is a romantic notion to reintroducing natural predators and letting nature find its own balance) but would you be ok paying significantly more for all your food due to increased losses from farmers? Of course what would likely happen is more food would just be imported from abroad where such sentiment was not considered.
Many years ago now some bridge spark thought it was a good idea to humanely capture a load of town/city foxes and release them in the forest where I lived out in the stix. It was an unmitigated disaster
 
Caporegime
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I've eaten purely veggie/vegan stuff before so, i don't really care that much. The most i've bought recently was a couple kg of chicken that honestly i can do without if it came to.

If a good Steak cost significant amounts, no i would not moan, it would go back to being a niche product like it always was.
 
Caporegime
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Again, you have assumed something incorrectly.

I don't take pleasure in killing anything. However, there is a problem with corvids and wood pigeons that needs addressing. To solve that problem, yes, I am looking forward to trying to redress the balance after the hiatus.

I would be happy to post a video where over 200 lambs gave had their eyes and tongues pecked out by crows on a single farm, just during a short lambing season. The video shows a crow pecking a lambs eyes out, as it is being born. By the time it is halfway out of the sheep, it's died of shock. That's the reality and as I am unsure of rules about that sort of content, until a mod posts it's ok to do so, I'll refrain.

So, am I looking forward to making some sort of impact on the crow, magpie (population up 98% from 30 years ago and is the number 1 UK nest raider of song birds) and wood pigeon population to address a problem? Yes. Do I enjoy killing anything? No.

Magpie populations were heavily persecuted by farmers and gamekeepers throughout the late 19th century first half of the 20th century, so it makes sense that once systematic persecution reduced populations rise again. Numbers haven’t increased much in the last 20 years in fact, likely reaching equilibrium.

Claiming a creature is a problem because it’s populations have increased from an artificially low number is a little backwards don’t you think? Unfortunately it’s pretty common practice. People get used to artificially low numbers of something and when it has the gumption to go back to a healthy population the calls start again for extermination.

Farming is necessity, but it’s also the single most damaging things humans do to sustain ourselves.
 
Soldato
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I've eaten purely veggie/vegan stuff before so, i don't really care that much. The most i've bought recently was a couple kg of chicken that honestly i can do without if it came to.

If a good Steak cost significant amounts, no i would not moan, it would go back to being a niche product like it always was.

not sure if deliberate but that was a bit of a tactical dodge there. This thread is generally arguing for letting nature find its own balance and us not interfering killing animals for improving farming which would include lost crop yeilds due to pigeons, rabbits etc and presumably not using pesticides etc.... So it would hit all your vegetables and grains as well. Eggs would be all free range and milk would have to rocket in price because cows do not naturally produce masses of milk.
There are alternatives to milk. I like soya milk in all but tea but if we all drank it the price would surely rocket (in the same way the whole country could not use battery cars I do not believe we have an infrastructure for us all to eat only naturally sourced free range / pesticide free food either

My fear would be people would just buy imported food but for discussion let's pretend that is not an option

Ultimately I totally agree WE are the problem and are the species which needs culling.....I can't rember who it was but A few years ago a woman suggested giving men the snip for food in 3rd world countries in famine (she may have implemented it I can't remember).
This did not end well for her and had world wide condemnation ..... But implementing this on a world wide level is the only solution Incan think of. It would not affect me, only 1 child and not having more but try getting anyone with 3 or more kids or with a hankering to have a big family sign off on that
 
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Soldato
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not sure if deliberate but that was a bit of a tactical dodge there. This thread is generally arguing for letting nature find its own balance and us not interfering killing animals for improving farming which would include lost crop yeilds due to pigeons, rabbits etc and presumably not using pesticides etc.... So it would hit all your vegetables and grains as well. Eggs would be all free range and milk would have to rocket in price because cows do not naturally produce masses of milk.
There are alternatives to milk. I like soya milk in all but tea but if we all drank it the price would surely rocket (in the same way the whole country could not use battery cars I do not believe we have an infrastructure for us all to eat only naturally sourced free range / pesticide free food either

Plus the alternatives have to come from somewhere, meaning shipping it from another country, stripping that country of it's resources and causing more pollution, poverty etc. There is no "well we'll just use something different" natural solution which works unless you take 100+ years to slowly cross over to using it (approx the same amount of time it took to make industrialised farming occur) as any "quick fix" causes more damage because the globe is current 90% set-up for industrialised farming. The only "quick fix" would be genetic food (meat/grain) which introduces a whole host of other issues.
 
Caporegime
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For those that are hand-twisting about shooting crows, foxes and the re-introduction of the three general licenses....genuinely interested on your thoughts about the RSPB shooting crows and foxes, to, you know, umm... conserve other species:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/08/08/rspb-members-protest-controversial-crow-cull/

Has the RSPB (edit, that will be the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds, the largest of any of our UK conservation groups), of whom Packham is the vice-president, become blood-thirsty pleasure hunters? If not, how are people who cull/kill for the exact same reasons on their land not lauded for conservation like the RSPB? Why have the incredibly well funded RSPB not found a viable alternative to shooting foxes and crows?

I guess what we could do is forget about stewardship, management and responsibility and blame people on internet forums for shooting the same birds that the RSPB do, to make their completely blinkered selves feel better that they have done sweet nothing apart from sit on their fat, lazy derriere.

It’s a pretty sad state of affairs tbh. I’m in two minds. Both are native species and have just as much right to live in the UK as humans, however due to the actions of humans (predominantly farmers and gamekeepers tbh, but also housing developers/towns) a large number of other native wildlife has been decimated and needs human help to survive. That help includes killing predators that naturally predate them.

As humanity is not going to change its destructive ways we end up taking it out on predators, who themselves are only just getting back to natural numbers after hundreds of years of persecution.

But remember, the price of bread is far more important than naive wildlife...
 
Caporegime
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not sure if deliberate but that was a bit of a tactical dodge there. This thread is generally arguing for letting nature find its own balance and us not interfering killing animals for improving farming which would include lost crop yeilds due to pigeons, rabbits etc and presumably not using pesticides etc.... So it would hit all your vegetables and grains as well. Eggs would be all free range and milk would have to rocket in price because cows do not naturally produce masses of milk.
There are alternatives to milk. I like soya milk in all but tea but if we all drank it the price would surely rocket (in the same way the whole country could not use battery cars I do not believe we have an infrastructure for us all to eat only naturally sourced free range / pesticide free food either

My fear would be people would just buy imported food but for discussion let's pretend that is not an option

Ultimately I totally agree WE are the problem and are the species which needs culling.....I can't rember who it was but A few years ago a woman suggested giving men the snip for food in 3rd world countries in famine (she may have implemented it I can't remember).
This did not end well for her and had world wide condemnation ..... But implementing this on a world wide level is the only solution Incan think of. It would not affect me, only 1 child and not having more but try getting anyone with 3 or more kids or with a hankering to have a big family sign off on that

In most of the developed world human birth rates are below replacement rates, I.e we will naturally decline in numbers over the next 50 years or so. However population numbers are still climbing due to economic factors. Our economic system requires exponential growth to survive, hence why immigration is such an important policy of most western governments (even if they try and hide it). It’s bolstering population numbers in most western countries.

In the developing world it’s different. Populations are still increasing quite significantly in many locations, but it’s not just that. Standards of living are also going up, which is taking its toll on earth too. 10 billion people cannot live to the same same stand as we in the west do, heck even 3 billion can’t. The only solution is to reduce population (happening naturally in developed countries, and moving that way in developing countries with women’s empowerment and education) and to reduce the damage western standards of living have on earth. The latter part is going to be far harder to solve.

The other solution is just continuing with the systematic extermination of wildlife so we can increase food and energy yield. Seems that may be backfiring too, insect population collapse may well be a big thin in the next couple of decades, a problem farmers will have brought upon themselves with pesticide use, monoculture and general environment damage.
 
Caporegime
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not sure if deliberate but that was a bit of a tactical dodge there. This thread is generally arguing for letting nature find its own balance and us not interfering killing animals for improving farming which would include lost crop yeilds due to pigeons, rabbits etc and presumably not using pesticides etc.... So it would hit all your vegetables and grains as well. Eggs would be all free range and milk would have to rocket in price because cows do not naturally produce masses of milk.
There are alternatives to milk. I like soya milk in all but tea but if we all drank it the price would surely rocket (in the same way the whole country could not use battery cars I do not believe we have an infrastructure for us all to eat only naturally sourced free range / pesticide free food either

Don't have it... yet. If there were a concerted effort to resolve our damaging ways, a solution would be found pretty damn quickly, right now it's just not viable as we have lobbying biases involved/costs of R&D purely private sector is slow going when it's not a big thing/most people are fine with murdering billions of animals a year for their cheap plate of low quality meat, hell i'm fine with it... doesn't mean it can last forever.

It's better to be prepared than to suddenly wonder why all the animals are dead.
 
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Because the farmers moan about re-introducing natural predators and that conservation requires population control in lieu of them?

We're the cause of these pests total lack of predators in the first place and the cause of their demise because we somehow find slaughtering animals necessary, it's not a difficult situation to understand. It's all self-inflicted misery.

My own thoughts on this is that technology and sentiment will resolve this one way or another.

What natural predator of the wood pigeon is/has been in decline? What natural predators of the wood pigeon have farmers moaned about rewilding?

Magpie populations were heavily persecuted by farmers and gamekeepers throughout the late 19th century first half of the 20th century, so it makes sense that once systematic persecution reduced populations rise again. Numbers haven’t increased much in the last 20 years in fact, likely reaching equilibrium.

Claiming a creature is a problem because it’s populations have increased from an artificially low number is a little backwards don’t you think? Unfortunately it’s pretty common practice. People get used to artificially low numbers of something and when it has the gumption to go back to a healthy population the calls start again for extermination.

Farming is necessity, but it’s also the single most damaging things humans do to sustain ourselves.

Systematic persecution of the magpie has never stopped, it has been one one of the most hated corvids (not necessarily fairly) for a reason. It has simply adapted well and we have created more environments for it to thrive. So no, I don't believe my argument is backwards. Magpies have a different impact at different places in the country and I whilst I agree that that magpies are not the major factor in the songbird decline in some places they are, however, in some locations, one of the factors. Their predation of songbirds has had a noticeable effect (traditional farms / game shoots that have not expanded nor removed songbird habitat) on other species.

But back to the original topic...Packham et al, exploit a loophole in general licenses that shuts down shooting of corvids, woodies etc. Yet Packham, Vice President of the RSPB, allows the shooting of corvids, under the auspices of the the previous General Licenses. For conservation of other species. As they have no viable alternative apparently. But expect everyone else to find that alternative, non-lethal method of control.
 
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Caporegime
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Who needs biodiversity anyhow. Let's just have sheep and pigs and cows and kill everything else, because everything else is either a pest, a potential disease carrier, a predator, or just takes up land that could have more sheep and pigs and cows on it.

Ah the poor farmers, so hard done by.
 
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"Pretty much every bird bird of prey native to the isles" ? Seriously?

You linked to a report (an RSPB report) that states there were 68 confirmed illegal killing of raptors in the UK in 2017. Not all raptors are predators of the wood pigeon, however 68 shootings of raptors is 68 too much.

There are (according to the RSPB (same source as yours) 5,400,000 breeding pairs of woodies in the UK ( so over 10 million). Are you saying that raptor persecution is the reason for the blooming UK wood pigeon population then? Let's be fair to the article you linked to...that was only 68 confirmed killings. Let's multiply that by 100%. To give your argument a chance. Let's say 68,000 raptors are killed illegally every year. Would that keep the woodie population in check?

Pretty much every raptor in the UK is decline?

Again, using the RSPB:

https://www.rspb.org.uk/globalasset...cies/birds-of-prey-on-a-wing-and-a-prayer.pdf

Could you point out to me the raptor that impacts the wood pigeon population, that is in decline? Page 16, if it helps.

Raptors are not the only natural predator of the wood pigeon in the UK either. You gave chosen a specific Order of birds. What about everything else that predates on the wood pigeon?

Your link to an Express article about the re-introduction of Sea Eagles....how is that a prime example of farmers' views? Sheep farmers, perhaps. All farmers, not even close.
 
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Associate
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Who needs biodiversity anyhow. Let's just have sheep and pigs and cows and kill everything else, because everything else is either a pest, a potential disease carrier, a predator, or just takes up land that could have more sheep and pigs and cows on it.

Ah the poor farmers, so hard done by.

It's been pointed out an more than occasion in this thread you seem to have an issue with farmers in general. You also seem to shy away from direct and perhaps difficult questions. What have you done for biodiversity, say, in the last year?
 
Caporegime
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It's been pointed out an more than occasion in this thread you seem to have an issue with farmers in general. You also seem to shy away from direct and perhaps difficult questions. What have you done for biodiversity, say, in the last year?
Thread isn't about me.

When we try people in court we don't interrogate the judge or the jury to see if they've done anything wrong...

Thread is about farmers and their general disregard for anything that isn't driving profits. And esp anything that could actually harm profits, like pretty much all wildlife.
 
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