Looking for Speaker Guidance

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So finally planning to upgrade my speakers as I think my ancient corsair ones are finally starting to die and based on reading here it looks like the general consensus is that PC speakers are either pretty rubbish or overpriced RGB crap so I'm planning to dive into a 'real' speaker setup :D

Current plan is to try and stay around £200 unless there is a really compelling reason to go over.

On my list so far:

  • Wharfedale Diamond 220's (I had looked at 9.0's and 9.1's but is there any reason to go with either of these over the 220's which appear to be the current model?).
  • SMSL SA-50 amp (minimal price increase over the well recommended SA-36 so I figured why not).
  • Fisual Banana plugs (assuming these will fit both speakers and amp?).
My main questions so far I think are around cabling and whether it is worth bi-wiring the speakers which the 220's seem to support and then if I do bi-wire them how to connect them to the amp, it looks like Fisual do a stackable banana plug I could use for this, and then finally what sort of cable should I be using to hook all this up, will basic speaker cable from that river named online store be good enough or should I be getting something more specific?
 
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I'm using a pair of 220's with a Yamaha RX-V373 on the PC. Sounds great for the spend. The AVR means I can use HDMI for audio and have a decent amp for my headphones.

I really don't think going bi-wire on these is going to bring you any noticable difference. I'm actually using power cable as speaker wire (and I am sure I will get burnt by someone in here for doing so...).
 
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Yeah, the Bi-wire option is an interesting idea, but opinions on whether it's worth it vary from "omg the difference is amazing" to "can't notice anything", there isn't a massive cost to doing it I guess but it would be nice to have a better idea as to whether it is worth it or not.
 
Soldato
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Pointless if the same amp however if you have two X two channel power amps it's worth it.

I went with avr as it has hdmi switching and DD/DTS decoding a regular amp doesn't have that.

Using a £350 avr and £500 speakers with £200 sub. Nothing too expensive just left over speakers
 

maj

maj

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If you're happy paying the price difference then go for the 220's. I've personally not heard them so can't compare them to the 9.0's which sound good for their price. I'd imagine they've improved some things since the 9 series.

Regarding speaker wire just make sure it is OFC and you can't really go wrong. Fisual do their own speaker wire which should suffice to go with their banana plugs.
 
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If you're happy paying the price difference then go for the 220's. I've personally not heard them so can't compare them to the 9.0's which sound good for their price. I'd imagine they've improved some things since the 9 series.

Regarding speaker wire just make sure it is OFC and you can't really go wrong. Fisual do their own speaker wire which should suffice to go with their banana plugs.

Thanks, is there any size/gauge cable I should be looking for? I see different widths like 2.5mm and 14/16 gauge cables but I'm a complete novice when it comes to this stuff (give me a complex windows server issue and im at home, audio stuff though....)
 

Kei

Kei

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14AWG (american wire gauge) is the same as 2.5mm2. 16AWG is 1.5mm2. 14 is as big as I'd go and 18 is about as small as I'd go for normal domestic speaker wiring over sensible distances. Just make sure that the cable you use is completely copper rather than copper clad aluminium. (CCA) Nothing wrong with what @brakeinup suggested by using 2 core mains flex. I've used both decent speaker cable and 2 core mains flex and noticed zero difference.
 
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14AWG (american wire gauge) is the same as 2.5mm2. 16AWG is 1.5mm2. 14 is as big as I'd go and 18 is about as small as I'd go for normal domestic speaker wiring over sensible distances. Just make sure that the cable you use is completely copper rather than copper clad aluminium. (CCA) Nothing wrong with what @brakeinup suggested by using 2 core mains flex. I've used both decent speaker cable and 2 core mains flex and noticed zero difference.

Perfect, that was exactly the info I was looking for! Already looking for pure copper as I've dealt with CCA before in crappy cheap network cables!
 
Soldato
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I use Fisual cable and banana plugs. Very good quality and inexpensive, unless you need really long runs of cable! :p

Wharfedale 220's look like a great choice for £100. I've got some 9.1's, which are great, but I see no reason really to choose those over the 220's. Q Acoustics speakers are also great, but £100 buys the smaller 3010's; the larger 3020's (similar woofer size the as 9.1's and 220's) are £130.

I'm using a pair of 220's with a Yamaha RX-V373 on the PC. Sounds great for the spend. The AVR means I can use HDMI for audio and have a decent amp for my headphones.

I really don't think going bi-wire on these is going to bring you any noticable difference. I'm actually using power cable as speaker wire (and I am sure I will get burnt by someone in here for doing so...).

I think you're safe here. :p The hi-fi section though, might be a different matter.... ;)

I'm sure I saw someone once say he used coat hanger wire! Whether he was just having a laugh though, I'm not sure. It will work fine, it's not flexible at all! :p
 
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The point of bi-wiring is so you can tune the speakers.

So for example you could put thicker cable running to the bass/midrange section to improve bass, then the tweeter section you use thinner cable with a high level of strands to make the sound more bright.

For most people however the bi-wire thing is total non-sense, especially since most don't even use speaker stands or any desk isolation and those are far the most important things for improving sound. And no I don't bi-wire my speakers.

In relation to cable. Cable is a resister so all speaker cable looses some energy to heat, you would never measure this heat energy however I assure you it's happening. To increase speaker sensitivity you want to choose pure copper cable and there is no harm in using the thicker cable, general rule is go one speaker cable grade thicker then what came supplied with the speakers. Search 'DCSK speaker cable' as it's pure copper and has great reviews, I use it.
 
Soldato
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I'm actually using power cable as speaker wire (and I am sure I will get burnt by someone in here for doing so...).

Using power cable will encourage more bass, but make the tweeter sounds less bright - it could be the speakers are set a bit bright so you lowered this somewhat. There is absolutely nothing wrong with what your doing, the only rule to sound is if it sounds correct, it does not matter how you got there.
 
Soldato
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Banana plugs are only really useful for convenience (easier plugging in) and appearance. I prefer to use them, but they aren't necessary.

I'm not a particularly big believer in fancy cables improving quality... Just get something that is well made, well shielded and adequately sized. IMO any 1.5mm2 or 2.5mm2 cable from a known brand will be fine. No need to spend more than around £1/m. Fiscal look like they do a standard copper wire in this price range :)

You can use whatever fancy cables you want, but the wiring inside the speaker is basic copper wire, so unless you're also going to rewire the inside, you're wasting your time!
 
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Using power cable will encourage more bass, but make the tweeter sounds less bright - it could be the speakers are set a bit bright so you lowered this somewhat. There is absolutely nothing wrong with what your doing, the only rule to sound is if it sounds correct, it does not matter how you got there.

Thanks for this - it interesting to know how the cable affects things.

No tweaking of the audio, just straight stereo from the AVR. But it does sound great to me. Bass is fine and highs are clear and just right across multiple genres of music. Pure luck I suppose as I used what I had at the time. The cable runs are no more that 1.5 metres. My Atmos setup does use better cable though, but the runs are much longer.
 
Soldato
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You can use whatever fancy cables you want, but the wiring inside the speaker is basic copper wire, so unless you're also going to rewire the inside, you're wasting your time!

I know fully what your saying, however the speaker cable that often gets included with speakers is thinner than whats around the crossover in the speakers. Also consider the length of speaker cable verses with tiny length that's inside the speaker. This video is interesting on the subject.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9wGoQ2KGkU
 
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Decent stereo speakers don't come with speaker cable included by the manufacturer.

Speaker cable really just has one main job to do, and that's to deliver the current demanded by the speakers with minimal loss. It should do that without imparting its own sonic signature on the audio signal. The current and voltages at play can be large. As long as the amp's power supply and design is proper, then 20W/ch of power in to an 8 Ohm load will result in a current flow of around 1.5 Amps.

The fact that the current flows and voltages are high compared with line level signals is the reason why speaker cables are not generally shielded. There's no point. The signal flows in the wires obliterate the much weaker induced flows from electromechanical and electromagnetic sources of interference. To put it in perspective, it's like worrying that one fan clapping and whooping will ruin the amplified sound for a concert in the O2 arena. That's why speaker cable is not routinely shielded.

The amount of current flow through a speaker cable can be adversely affected by the cable thickness (gauge / cross sectional area 'CSA'), length, construction and material. Copper is the optimum conductor material. For loud speaker use, there's a sweet spot between the CSA and the number of individual filaments: cables with hundreds of very thin filaments are bad for power transfer because the single filament CSA is too small. Too few filaments tends to coarsen the treble response.

The thickness required goes hand-in-hand with the cable length and the amount of power it is required to carry. For a high power amp (100W RMS in to 8 Ohm @ 0.015% THD, 20Hz-20kHz, continuous) and say 10 metres of cable per channel, then a 2.5mm CSA cable would be plenty thick enough to get a decent ratio of cost/performance in power transfer. A 0.75mm CSA cable would throttle peak power.

However, if the amp was outputting no more than 20W/ch RMS at peak then there'd be very little measurable and perceptible difference between a 10mtr 0.75mm CSA cable and anything thicker for the 1.5 Amps being drawn by an 8 Ohm load. Where things become more complicated is that speakers are not a consistent load. Their impedance dips and peaks with frequency. This changes the amount of current that the speaker is trying to draw. NOW speaker cable thickness becomes far more important, but it plays second fiddle to the amplifier's ability to supply current. Everything has a hierarchy of importance.

At a sustained dip in impedance down to 3 Ohms, the speaker is trying to draw around 52W from an amp capable of delivering 20W. The current flow would be approx 4.2 Amps. A 0.75mm CSA cable would throttle the power delivery to a shade over 40W, but not before the amp throws up the white flag and runs out of steam. This is why the power supply in these small Chinese Class T/Class D amps is the limiting factor to their power delivery.

In the main, thicker cable won't hurt, but if the amp can't keep up with what the speaker demands then how thick the speaker cable is could be a moot point. Get the power side sorted first. For everyday use a 1.5mm CSA cable is sufficient for most people with a living room stereo system.


Bi-wiring.... Worth it?

I think it depends on the speaker and the listener's preference for the sort of sound they're looking for.

Firstly, I think bi-wiring started out with the right intentions, but then a lot of #metoo manufacturers followed the trend and suddenly people had to have bi-wire terminals without really understanding why. It's a sort of Emperor's new clothes feature and a useful marketing tool to add perceived value to a product for very little cost and so boost profits.

Secondly, the sort of speakers that I like tend to focus on time alignment of the drivers. Bi-wiring often upsets that.

Some others have suggested that the very same brass jumpers that enable bi-wiring in the first place actually contribute to a worsening of the sound compared to single terminals on speakers. One step forward, two steps back. My JM Lab (Focal) speakers have bi-wire terminals. I unscrewed the binding post plate and combined the HF and LF feeds, so effectively reverting them to mono wired speakers. Interestingly, the brand has reverted to mono wiring on many of its high-end speakers. It's their view that bi-wiring often messes up more than it improves.

My own experience with bi-wiring is that it creates a sonic hole between the midrange and treble. The sound becomes disjointed.

I think there are bigger priorities with speakers than worrying about bi-wiring. #1 Get some rigid support that allows the drivers to do their job without the speaker energising what they're sat on. #2 Position the speakers correctly so that there's not too much bass overhang from being too close to the back and side walls. #3 Set the width and toe-in so that the speakers focus and image properly.
 
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How does thicker cable make a tweeter less bright? Unless the cable has more inductance (which itself isnt a direct result of a bigger cross section and can be minimised using a different cable construction) then I don't see how that works?
 
Soldato
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Some others have suggested that the very same brass jumpers that enable bi-wiring in the first place actually contribute to a worsening of the sound compared to single terminals on speakers. One step forward, two steps back. My JM Lab (Focal) speakers have bi-wire terminals. I unscrewed the binding post plate and combined the HF and LF feeds, so effectively reverting them to mono wired speakers. Interestingly, the brand has reverted to mono wiring on many of its high-end speakers. It's their view that bi-wiring often messes up more than it improves.

This is how I solved above, the cable is cut back in 2 places, so it's contacting both speaker terminals, the standard jumpers I left in place.

Also I'm not concerned about the cable end coming loose and shorting, as ends are pushed fully out of thumbscrew (can't see from camera angle) and thumbscrews quite hand tight, I do check them once in a while to make sure they have not come loose.

smallspeaker.jpg
 
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