WLTP has hit

Soldato
Soldato
Joined
26 Oct 2013
Posts
9,715
Location
Leicester
Ze Germans are crying

Been trying to run a few quotes through carwow for a D5 A8 and noticed on 1st July that all the options were missing

Odd I thought
Contacted carwow and a couple of dealers and they were equally confused. So obviously had to figure it out myself. I'm pretty sure now the every option has to be tested for WLTP testing method that all the options have been removed.
I noticed another trim level has been added - "Vorsprung". This adds heated front and rear seats, climate seats, extended leather etc etc list goes on. This seems to have replaced the options so you basically can't have any options anymore. You have to buy the sport, S line, black edition or vorsprung. Too late to order using the old method, now it's trim level or go home.

Now the germans have had to do a KIA/Hyundai and smash everything into trim levels instead
 
Soldato
Joined
22 Oct 2002
Posts
8,234
Location
Near Cheltenham
Ze Germans are crying

Been trying to run a few quotes through carwow for a D5 A8 and noticed on 1st July that all the options were missing

Odd I thought
Contacted carwow and a couple of dealers and they were equally confused. So obviously had to figure it out myself. I'm pretty sure now the every option has to be tested for WLTP testing method that all the options have been removed.
I noticed another trim level has been added - "Vorsprung". This adds heated front and rear seats, climate seats, extended leather etc etc list goes on. This seems to have replaced the options so you basically can't have any options anymore. You have to buy the sport, S line, black edition or vorsprung. Too late to order using the old method, now it's trim level or go home.

Now the germans have had to do a KIA/Hyundai and smash everything into trim levels instead

Perfect, and about bloody time, you almost seem to be putting a negative spin on things, or are you seriously telling me that the F25 BMW X3 XDrive 35d MSport (highest trim level) not coming with electric seats as standard and then having to play the options lottery is a good thing?
:)

The previous vehicle we had (Nissan X-Trail Tekna) had everything as standard, LED headlights, Auto everything, full collision avoidance, 360 cameras, auto parking, pan roof, electric heated seats, comfort access, comfort glass, highest level of sat-nav to name but a few.. So easy to just look for the myriad of examples of the Tekna trim levels, knowing our essential options list was a subset of that and we didn't have to compromise (other than it being a Nissan maybe!)

In contrast, all we wanted was 360 cameras for the F25 X3, but struggled, and whilst we found one with a very long options list, on viewing it, my jaw hit the floor when it was clear that electric seats are not standard. It turns out quite a few people where disappointed when they picked up their near £50k list price X3 only to find it had manual seats, something they had taken for granted.

Meh! :)
 
Last edited:
Soldato
Soldato
OP
Joined
26 Oct 2013
Posts
9,715
Location
Leicester
Perfect, and about bloody time, you almost seem to be putting a negative spin on things, or are you seriously telling me that the F25 BMW X3 XDrive 35d MSport (highest trim level) not coming with electric seats as standard and then having to play the options lottery because you want something financially reasonable is a good thing?
:)
To be honest, I thought the Koreans were doing it right, but now has made me realise maybe options kind of work :D

eg vorsprung has cooled front seats, massage front seats, matrix reading lights, rear seat remote, all wheel steering and all this other crap that we didn't want. However black edition (one spec below) doesn't have the heated rear seats, 4 zone climate etc that we wanted in the first place. It's now gone from a 65k "purchase" to 78k+ for the required options!!

Just in case anyone interested here are the new trim levels

standard spec
A8%20-%202.PNG

S-Line
A8%20-%203.PNG

Black edition

A8%20-%204.PNG

Vorsprung
A8%20-%205.PNG
 
Soldato
Joined
25 May 2008
Posts
3,738
Location
North Wales
The stupid way the Germans do options is one of the reasons i've never bothered to look at any of their cars, who can be bothered having to learn the whole options list inside out and then spend the rest of time trying to find the needle in a haystack example that has the ones you want.

Have 3 or 4 trim levels and job jobbed
 
Caporegime
Joined
21 Jun 2006
Posts
38,372
i like the new trim level way. makes it far easier for second hand pricing.

as in you see adverts saying X car with £10K+ of add ons to distinguish why it's priced more. in the future you won't have that.

you won't see that in future as it's based on spec.
 
Soldato
Soldato
OP
Joined
26 Oct 2013
Posts
9,715
Location
Leicester
I would tend to agree but in this specific case the trim level price difference from middle to top is over 20k RRP. There needs to be another level or some options available to add or remove
 
Joined
4 Aug 2007
Posts
21,386
Location
Wilds of suffolk
I not sure this will stick. Most of the rest of the range seems to be functioning normally from what I have heard.

I suspect its an issue on the lower volume cars for now. VW group had a shortage of trained people and equipment to cover all the variations.
Audi went some months with segments unable to be ordered, this is maybe a reaction, create the UBER class with literally every option ticked.

Its the old way of doing it and worse IMO. Suppose it depends if your buying new (and not wanting to spec and pay for stuff you dont want) as opposed to being a bottom feeder buying used cars. J/k ;)
 
Caporegime
Joined
26 Aug 2003
Posts
37,493
Location
Leafy Cheshire
I think somewhere in between would be the best of both worlds. Spec by trim level, but a handful of option “packs” that allow you to add stuff to lower trims for those not wanting literally everything.

That way the WLTP testing stays at a reasonable number of permutations.
 
Soldato
Joined
16 Jul 2004
Posts
14,075
WLTP doesn’t prevent options. They also don’t test the car with the combinations of options, the CO2 values are calculated - after an initial few physical tests - with software, based on the additional weight of the option and it’s aerodynamic impact.

The OEMs and industry data providers have systems that can calculate the emissions values of any combination of options.
 
Soldato
Joined
1 Mar 2010
Posts
21,781
yes I don't get it either ... seems to be a hypothesis that real world emissions and mpg testing - that's what it is no ?
is having some significant impact on options ... so do we know how each of these models variants is mpg/co2 classified then ?
 
Caporegime
Joined
28 Feb 2004
Posts
74,822
WLTP doesn’t prevent options. They also don’t test the car with the combinations of options, the CO2 values are calculated - after an initial few physical tests - with software, based on the additional weight of the option and it’s aerodynamic impact.

The OEMs and industry data providers have systems that can calculate the emissions values of any combination of options.


WRONG they do not "calculate" anything.

Working for one of the UK labs doing the testing for a large number of OEM's I can tell you that without doubt manufacturers now HAVE to test;
  • all models in their range
  • and all possible engine configurations for all fuel types for each model
  • and all trim levels
  • and all options including all tyre and wheel combinations

Which is why exactly what the OP found out is starting to happen, and manufacturers are just doing basic no option levels, a mid range level, and fully loaded levels, rather than dozens upon dozens upon dozens of different option possibilities.

Manufacturers are facing supply issues with some of their vehicles, as every model a brand produces has to be assessed against WLTP criteria.
Recently a number of OEM's admitted supply issues with plug-in hybrid vehicles (PHEVs), as the priority has been to get big-selling petrol and diesel models through the new certification process first and foremost.

All WLTP testing has to be overseen by independent test organisations even if the testing is done by the manufacturers in house.
 
Last edited:
Caporegime
Joined
28 Feb 2004
Posts
74,822


World harmonised Light vehicle Testing Protocol.


All new cars sold from 1st September 2018 have to be assessed under WLTP, and the tests involved are longer and tougher than those contained within the previous NEDC (New European Driving Cycle) assessments that it replaced.
WLTP is designed to give motorists a clearer idea of how much fuel their cars will use, and the volume of pollutants emitted during driving.

From September 2019 the RDE (Real Driving Emissions) test will be mandated as well.

That will see cars have a Portable Emissions Measurement System (PEMS) fitted to their rear to measure particulate matter, fuel economy and nitrogen oxide (NOx) emissions, and taken out on public roads for between 90-120 minutes.

RDE does not replace the WLTP laboratory test, but complements it. RDE serves to confirm WLTP results in real life, thereby ensuring that cars do deliver low pollutant emissions, not only in the laboratory but also on the road.
 
Man of Honour
Joined
19 Jan 2003
Posts
12,645
Location
Warwickshire
WRONG they do not "calculate" anything.

Working for one of the UK labs doing the testing for a large number of OEM's I can tell you that without doubt manufacturers now HAVE to test;
  • all models in their range
  • and all possible engine configurations for all fuel types for each model
  • and all trim levels
  • and all options including all tyre and wheel combinations

Which is why exactly what the OP found out is starting to happen, and manufacturers are just doing basic no option levels, a mid range level, and fully loaded levels, rather than dozens upon dozens upon dozens of different option possibilities.

Manufacturers are facing supply issues with some of their vehicles, as every model a brand produces has to be assessed against WLTP criteria.
Recently a number of OEM's admitted supply issues with plug-in hybrid vehicles (PHEVs), as the priority has been to get big-selling petrol and diesel models through the new certification process first and foremost.

All WLTP testing has to be overseen by independent test organisations even if the testing is done by the manufacturers in house.
This information is wrong too.

By no means do they have to test EVERY Tyre, Option, or even every model.

It’s a complex, long winded process, can’t deny that - but it does its best to simplify it.

Basically cars are split into families based on common criteria (same engine, gearbox etc), and then the book ends are tested. So BMW for example would likely group 540d saloon, 540d estate, 640d together, possibly even 320d, but the spread has limits. Cars are then interpolated to a set of rules when you build them to give CO2 / fuel economy figures.

For each of the bookends, you then do WLTP fuel economy tests, then for the higher bookend you also do 14degC test.

What car markers are having to deal with is that every option can change CO2, and makes the data / logistical challenge much harder. Which is why you’re seeing fewer option mixes and more standard trim levels.

(I for OEM and dealt with WLTP on daily basis)
 
Joined
4 Aug 2007
Posts
21,386
Location
Wilds of suffolk
Nope there are a lot of options missing from what it used to be. A8 UK configurator has not even been updated to reflect the new option choices

I am not saying there is the same list of options, I would never consider a A8 so I wouldn't even look. Looking at the TT, the list also looks shorter, but there are plenty of options.

By no means are AUDI going to a few trim levels, they seem to have similar trim levels to before, plus an UBER level on some. There is a shorter list of options, but its still quite a list of options.
Now it matters they have adapted and probably just dropped options that sold in low quantites, and where they did sell they have packaged them up with other options that those people also bought, ie revised some packs, and revised some trim levels.

I also remember when the TT refresh came out there were options available in Germany that were not on the UK configurator, so its quite possible some of the options are just not in the UK for some reason. No one managed to get an answer why this was for the TT, partly marketing maybe who knows.
 
Back
Top Bottom